Boundaries, Self-Worth and Saying No with Barb Nangle | Part 1 of 3

Summary: In Part 1, Katie sits down with Barb Nangle, boundaries coach, speaker, author and podcast host of Fragmented to Whole, for one of the most grounding conversations this season. Barb's life transformed at age 52 through 12-step recovery, where she discovered that the antidote to decades of codependence, people-pleasing and self-neglect was learning to build healthy boundaries.

She opens with one of the most powerful definitions of boundaries Katie has heard: boundaries are where you end and another person begins. They are not walls. They are the distance at which you can love both yourself and someone else at the same time. In Part 1, they explore what codependence really looks like in everyday life, why people-pleasing is a survival mechanism rooted in childhood, and how integrity and boundaries are inseparable.

Key Takeaways
→ Boundaries define where you end and where someone else begins. Without them, you do not even know what you want, like, need or prefer because you are constantly molding yourself around others.

→ Boundaries are the distance at which I can love both you and me simultaneously. Before boundaries, Barb was loving others while completely neglecting herself.

→ People-pleasing is a survival mechanism, not a character flaw. We learn early that we need the adults around us to be okay with us to survive. That pattern runs into adulthood without us realizing it.

→ Integrity and boundaries are the same thing. Living in alignment with your values and honoring what is okay and not okay for you is what integrity actually looks like in practice.

→ You can act your way into right thinking. You do not have to wait until you feel worthy to start setting boundaries. The feeling of worthiness follows from the action.

→ Intergenerational dysfunction is real. Our parents did what they knew how to do. Forgiveness becomes possible when you understand they literally could not do what they were not capable of. And you get to stop the cycle.

→ Your nervous system chooses relief over protection. When your system is in an internal emergency, you default to whatever has historically relieved the discomfort, even if it is the dysfunctional pattern.

Where to Find Barb
Free 30 minute "Say No without Guilt" call
Podcast
Website
LinkedIn
Youtube
What's Draining Your Boundaries Quiz

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:00)
Welcome back to the Catapult Effect podcast. I am so excited for today's episode. We are gonna be talking about boundaries and how important they are. And I have with me a really, really cool guest. Her name is Barb Nagle and she is a boundaries coach, a speaker, an author, and a podcast host. At age 52, Barb Nagle's life transformed through 12-step recovery after decades of therapy merely skimmed the surface. That really resonates, Barb.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (00:28)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (00:28)
Addressing

codependence, unlocked healing from intergenerational trauma, childhood wounds, and compulsive overeating. Learning to build healthy boundaries revolutionized her relationships, impacting her professional life at Yale. Formerly masking her struggles with substance abuse and overeating, she shed over 100 pounds and confronted her deep-seated negativity and fear. Driven by a desire for growth and social justice, Barb now empowers professional women to break patterns of self-neglect.

Through boundary coaching, speaking in her podcast, Fragmented to Whole, she guides women to build internal safety, reclaim their power, and say no to what no longer serves them, fostering a world where interchange drives societal impact. Welcome to the Catapult Effect podcast, Bob. I cannot wait to dive in.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (01:12)
Yes, thank you.

Thank you. Me too. This is going to be a great conversation. I know it.

Katie Wrigley (01:19)
Yes, absolutely. So I want to start out with like, what is the importance of boundaries?

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (01:27)
So boundaries are really about your identity. Like where do I end and other people begin? I didn't know what I wanted, liked, needed and preferred because I was so accommodating to other people. used to think of myself as a chameleon, like, I can fit in anywhere. And here's the thing, no, you can't. You you're like your actual self can't, maybe you can appear to fit in everywhere, but you don't feel authentically you.

Katie Wrigley (01:30)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (01:56)
when you're fitting in everywhere. It's sort of one way that I thought about it, Katie, was like there were parts of a lot of barb that was up for negotiation. So one example, you you mentioned my substance use in there. When I started drinking, I drank beer because that's what everybody drank at 16. Then I met a guy who was a wine connoisseur and I started dating him. So then I got into wine and then I dated a guy who drank Jack Daniels. So I drank Jack Daniels and Diet Coke.

And then I met a guy who was a beer connoisseur and I learned that I Belgian wheat beers. So I didn't even have my own damn drink. I have been a football fan of four different teams over time. I don't give a shit about football, right? So like, those are examples. Like I didn't even know what I liked. And I finally am like, I don't care about football. I just felt like this is what it means to be a good girlfriend.

Katie Wrigley (02:50)
This, you are like coming out of the gate so good, so strong. Like I love that reframe that it is where we end and the next person begins. And thank you for sharing that because my, and let me know if this resonates for you. Like, did you keep telling yourself, I'm just trying this because they introduced me to it.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (02:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ I don't even think I had any cognitive understanding. I just did it. don't remember making decisions. I just sort of knew. You meld yourself into your surroundings because that's what I learned. And I think of boundaries, like I don't know if people will see this or not, but I think of boundaries as I determined what's the shape of Barb. For those who can't see visually, I'm sort of

Katie Wrigley (03:32)
Mm-hmm.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (03:36)
push, know, pull my hands around the outline of Barb. Like I've determined the boundaries. Where does Barb end and other people begin? And so they, you know, I think of boundaries are their standards that I have for my life. And therefore I have limits that I set to uphold those standards. So some of those limits are for most of those limits are actually for me, frankly.

And then some of them for other people. just a basic example that most people can understand is, you mentioned like all the crap I did to myself. So now health is a really important boundary for me. So just one example of a limit I have for myself to uphold and support and promote my health is that I go to bed by like 10.30 at night, rather than staying up all night reading or scrolling social media or watching whatever TV or whatever.

And but I didn't start by going, okay, I'm going to bed at 1030. I started with midnight and I got used to that. And then 1130, then 11, then 1030. And then it was, I'm going to read for pleasure before I go to bed, rather than play a video game or do social media or whatever. So because sleep is foundational to good health. Now I have many, many other boundaries for my health and then limits I have for other people.

I don't allow smoking in my home because that's what a healthy home requires. No smoke. You know, so those are just really basic examples of that. have this standard of health and then some limits I have to uphold support and promote those standards.

Katie Wrigley (05:01)
Yep. Right.

I love that. you make it such a simple concept to grasp. Like I remember the first time I heard about boundaries was through something that Brene Brown was doing. I'm like, I don't get it. And you actually said something that chameleon, that is the exact word that I used to describe myself when I was in corporate. I was constantly trying to fit into my environment. I remember one of my sales guys at one point, he's like, why do you try to be one of the guys so much? It's like, well, because I work with all men, like I was the engineer part of it.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (05:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (05:41)
So it was like 99 % men when I started the career and 24 years later, it was like 97 % men. And so it was just easier, it was a Yeah, it took a huge toll. Yes, very important point is like, yes, I told myself it was easier and it was a massive toll, massive stress pattern that eventually led to my disability.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (05:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Well, that's what you told yourself, that it was just easier. That's the thing. Of course.

Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (06:08)
And I'm curious

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (06:08)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (06:09)
what you think about this. Like I'm recalling a time in the past, like in the recent past, in last few years, where a friend was setting a boundary with me. And I had done, I had been engaging in really off-putting behavior, actually. So I totally would like love the fact that she was as gentle and as loving as she was with the boundary. And I made me realize.

And again, like if I'm wrong on this, absolutely say so. But I realize that boundaries tell people like how they can love us. So we're saying like, we don't set boundaries with people we don't want to have in our lives. We set boundaries with people we love and we're like, hey, in order for me to love you up this close, this is what I need to be able to do this. To be the best person I can be in your life, I need boundaries to be able to be this close to you. So very funny.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (06:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (07:00)
that.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (07:01)
Yeah. A couple of things occur to me is that, like, one way that I say that is if you want the best of me, then this is how we'll operate. There was a quote that I've used, and I finally just recently found out. It's by a guy named Prentice Hemphill, and he says, boundaries are the distance.

at which I can love both you and me simultaneously.

Katie Wrigley (07:20)
Can you say that again, please?

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (07:22)
Boundaries are the distance at which I can love both you and me simultaneously. So before I had boundaries, I was loving on you while completely neglecting myself, which is what you were doing in the corporate world. And actually the term that came up for me is corporate chameleon instead of karma chameleon, you were a corporate chameleon. So we've just coined that term right now on your show. And what the reason you said it took a toll on you was because of your integrity.

Katie Wrigley (07:39)
Yes.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (07:48)
you compromised your integrity, boundaries are about establishing or re-establishing integrity. They're about bringing yourself into alignment with yourself and living in alignment with what matters to you, like your values and that sort of thing. And so many of us, like, I always thought I was a woman of integrity, but I, so I learned how to build boundaries through the process of 12 step recovery.

really vicariously through the 12 steps. It's not like somebody sat me down in recovery and did that. But I truly believed, Katie, when I got in recovery, that I was an honest person. And I was like, oh my God, I've lied about cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, relationships. Mostly the vast majority of my lying has been in the people pleasing department, acting like things were okay with me, saying yes to things I didn't really want to do, and then probably talking about you behind your back because you made me.

do things that I've volunteered for. You know, so I thought I was a woman of value and integrity and I thought I was a values oriented person. No, I was not. And I didn't know it. That's the scary part. You know.

Katie Wrigley (08:58)
Yeah.

And that's a heavy hitter for someone who values integrity and is identifying as a person with integrity. Because I mean, if you look at the definition of integrity, it's doing what is right even when no one's looking. Like that's the way I like to hear it referred to. And I'll catch myself sometimes like when I don't want to do that thing, like, wait a second, like, what is the move that's an integrity? And it's not always comfortable to take that.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (09:12)
Right, yes.

Mm-hmm. No,

of course not. That's why not everybody does it. Because I wasn't being dishonest because I'm a horrible person. I was being dishonest because I was trying to protect myself because I learned early, fucking lie, because it's safer. It's really about like we're doing this to protect ourselves. So we develop a lot of these patterns in our childhood. I didn't know that it was because of trauma.

Katie Wrigley (09:28)
Right.

Right? Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (09:50)
You know, so we develop these patterns in childhood because we're trying to keep ourselves safe because we learned I need the adults around me to be okay with me to survive. And I learned from them, don't tell me the truth about a lot of things. But then of course, if you lie and get caught, then you get in trouble for lying.

Katie Wrigley (10:06)
Yes.

Yes.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (10:12)
So

it's like this double bind that you're in. So it's like, well, get really good at not getting caught lying. And it's for safety. So it's not that we're bad people. It's that we learned bad coping or unhealthy coping mechanisms. I remember saying a few years ago, so I've been in recovery for 11 years. So that's like the massive change in my life happened, you know, 11, 10, nine years ago. And

Katie Wrigley (10:20)
Yep.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (10:39)
I remember saying to somebody a few years ago, like I didn't grow up with coping mechanisms. And I'm like, wait a minute. Yes, I did. I grew up with shitty, unhealthy, dysfunctional coping mechanisms. Like lie to people, people please people, be sarcastic, talk behind people's backs, one up people, humiliate people, just awful, awful things that I now know my...

Katie Wrigley (10:45)
you

Mm-hmm Yep

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (11:08)
This is intergenerational. Like my parents didn't set out to be like, how do we screw up our kids? They did what they knew how to do. And even though like before recovery intellectually, I understood my parents did the best they could. Now that I understand the intergenerational nature of family dysfunction, they literally did the best they could. It wasn't good enough, but I can't really hold them accountable for not being able to do something.

that they were not capable of doing. But I get to stop the dysfunction. I get to stop the intergenerational nature of the dysfunction.

Katie Wrigley (11:40)
Mm-hmm.

I that. I love everything you said there and kudos to you for 11 years in the recovery. That is no small feat. And what you just said in that statement, being able to see your parents as they are, as the imperfectly flawed, wonderful people they are, they absolutely tried their best and it wasn't enough. And there's forgiveness because you can see they did their best. And like I have really fantastic parents as well.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (11:53)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Well, that's so good.

Katie Wrigley (12:17)
I'm so lucky. And I live only 20 minutes away from them. So it's such a pleasure to be able to connect with them and to grow our relationship to the depths that we now can because I've done so much work to heal my trauma. We can connect so much more deeply and there's levels of trust and boundaries. And I didn't learn boundaries from my parents and I can see like, you know, I

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (12:39)
Mm.

Katie Wrigley (12:41)
I love both of my parents and the way my... It took me a while, but the way my dad sets boundaries is he doesn't respond. So if he doesn't respond to something, there's something there he doesn't want to say, I've hit a boundary, that's my cue to say, what do you need from me here? And then when I open that up, okay, this is not okay with me, this is. And then he's very clear, but he has to be invited because that was his learning.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (12:49)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (13:08)
And am I going to do that with a friend who has a similar level of skills to me? No. But because they've got a similar level of skills, it's going to be more empowering for them to communicate with me to help set the boundary. Whereas my dad grew up different time, different skill sets. He never had that same permission to to be that vocal. And so it just it looks different. But.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (13:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (13:34)
None of that was available to me until I healed and was able to see them and make that same leap you did of like they were amazing parents. And in my parents' case, they didn't have a chance in hell of being able to save me from what happened to me as a kid. And much to your point, like with that people pleasing, it becomes even more important to please the adults around you when you've been threatened and silenced. And if you tell anybody,

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (13:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (14:01)
really bad shit is going to happen to you or your parents or both. Like now it's like,

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (14:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (14:07)
my God, like my life is literally on the line. I have to do what you want or I'm dead. And it's terrifying to the nervous system, to the person, because the nervous system is there to keep you alive. Someone's writing that like, and my way out of it is that I please them, people pleasing it keeps me alive.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (14:11)
Right, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah. And you know what just occurred to me when you said that is something I did a presentation recently on internal boundaries and internal safety. And I talked about how your system chooses relief over protection.

Katie Wrigley (14:44)
Yes.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (14:45)
So whatever I need to do to relieve this feeling of an internal emergency in my nervous system is what I'm going to do, which is often reverting to our old dysfunctional behaviors where we focus on the other person and what do they need, rather than what do I need to do to build self-trust with myself and protect myself. And protect myself means becoming my own advocate, stopping, abandoning myself, not

Katie Wrigley (15:03)
Hmm.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (15:14)
paving into what other people think I should be doing. Even if they try to make me believe that I'm wrong by setting whatever limit that I'm setting and my internal system is going haywire, intellectually we understand like I get to set this limit, but because our body's on fire, we opt for the lifelong pattern of I need to relieve this fire going on inside. And we think that

And actually it was pleasing the people around us. That was the thing that was most protective. But the way that we build trust in ourselves and the way we start protecting our own selves is figuring out what do I need in this moment to honor my nervous system without giving in to other people, places and things. So for me, it often starts with, you know, I put my hand on my chest.

and I sigh or I take a few breaths, sometimes I'm paying attention to both the rising and falling of my chest as well as the beating of my heart because when I'm doing both of those, I'm super focused. And when you're super focused, you can't pay attention to other people. You're focused internally on you. And then I often will look around me and I'll name three things I can see if I'm alone out loud, and then I will touch a couple of different things. So I'm engaging.

my senses and my body because I can only do those in the present moment. And when we do all that stuff it calms the nervous system down. So we're essentially viscerally giving them the the message to your body you're safe. Which means your frontal lobe now comes back online and you can think clearly. This is why when we're really upset we can't think clearly because the frontal lobe

basically gets cut off because all that energy that's used for thinking, which is an enormous amount of energy gets funneled to the fight or flight mechanism. And if you've been like, it sounds like you and me, you know, when you have childhood trauma, you've been in fight or flight mode most of your life. It's like your go to, well, the human body was not meant to be in fight or flight mode very often at all, nevermind for years on end. And so it compromises so much of our

beingness and it compromises our inner knowing because in the younger formative years it was like this safety mechanism is here to protect me and it did but it's counterproductive now that we're adults.

Katie Wrigley (17:49)
Yeah, 100%. Now all of that makes a ton of sense to me. And there are a couple of things that came up as you were talking, and then they left again. So they must not have been that important. But yes, I really love how simple you break down the importance of boundaries and also how you define them. Boundaries are where I end. So I know that this is where I am.

Barb Nangle, Boundaries Coach (18:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (18:17)
This is a fantastic place for us to wrap up part one and we are gonna continue this conversation in part two. So come join us again. Thank you so much for being here with us today to listen to this. And I trust you are getting a lot out of the conversation I'm having with Barb and I encourage you to come back again in a couple more days and catch up with part two. We'll see you in the next episode and until then, please be well.