Why "Just Relaxing" Won't Solve Your Burnout with Scott Anderson

summary

In this episode of the Catapult Effect podcast, host Katie Wrigley speaks with Scott Anderson about the pervasive issue of burnout, its symptoms, and the common misconceptions surrounding recovery. Scott emphasizes that traditional advice often exacerbates burnout and discusses the importance of understanding the emotional and mental dimensions of stress. He introduces the concept of the burnout cycle, explaining how individuals become trapped in a pattern of overwork and stress, and offers practical strategies for breaking free and achieving a healthier work-life balance. 

In this conversation, Scott Anderson and Katie Wrigley delve into the complexities of burnout, exploring the fears associated with change, the importance of community in recovery, and the practical steps to overcome burnout. They discuss the journey from personal struggle to creating scalable solutions for others, emphasizing the need for disconnection and the potential for personal growth after burnout. The conversation concludes with a message of hope, encouraging listeners to seek help and recognize that recovery is possible.

takeaways

• Burnout is an epidemic, particularly in the U.S.
• People often become addicted to their own stress responses.
• High achievers often struggle with perfectionism and poor boundaries.
• Recovery from burnout can lead to better performance and life satisfaction.
• Gentle, practical steps are essential for addressing burnout. Resistance to change often takes more energy than the change itself.
• Isolation exacerbates feelings of burnout and stress.
• Recovery from burnout can lead to unexpected personal growth.
• It's possible to master stress and choose when to engage.
• There is always hope for recovery from burnout.

Where to find Scott:

Fast Fix Call

Double Dare

Buy his book: You're Not Toast

Connect with Scott on LinkedIn

Resources

• Website
• Learn more about Cognomovement
• Try Cognomovement for yourself!
• Book a call with Katie

Credit: Tom Giovingo, Intro & Outro, Random Voice Guy, Professional ‘Cat‘ Herder

Mixed & Managed: JohnRavenscraft.com

Disclaimer: Katie is not a medical professional and she is not qualified to diagnose any conditions. The advice and information she gives is based on her own experience and research. It does not take the place of medical advice. Always consult a medical professional first before you try anything new.

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:00.078)
Catapult Effect podcast. am your host, Katie Wrigley. I have another amazing guest with me today, Scott Anderson, and he is going to talk to us about how you can avoid burnout and the importance of avoiding burnout. So stay tuned. That is coming up next. Thank you again for joining me today. Scott Anderson is the author of You're Not Toast and the founder of Double Dare, a business coaching service helping high achieving professionals break free from burnout.

With 30 years of business ownership and ICF certification and mental health therapy credentials, Scott guides clients through a proven process to reduce stress, scale businesses, and rediscover work passion. His approach blends business strategy with deep understanding of burnout's mental and emotional dimensions. Welcome to the Catapult Effect podcast, Scott. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Scott Anderson (00:50.257)
Thanks, Katie. It's so great to be here. I'll be honest, most of the advice about burnout actually makes it worse. And that's why I wrote, You're Not Toast.

Katie Wrigley (00:59.478)
I love that. So let's start with what exactly is burnout. Let's start there.

Scott Anderson (01:05.973)
Sure. Well, you know, mean, there is a, World Health Organization has a clinical definition for it. And we know based on WHO and the Gallup poll that burnout is a epidemic, certainly in the United States. But in terms of the clinical definition, the best way to describe it, I think, is in terms of the symptoms that most people exhibit. And

The main thing is a level of exhaustion that doesn't go away with a good night's sleep or a vacation or even we've had clients who have taken sabbaticals and they return just as exhausted as they were before. So it's that kind of that Groundhog's Day movie moment of waking up and it's 6.30 a.m. one more day and you kind of wonder, boy, I hope today is the day that I keep getting out of bed and hope it's the day that I.

or hope it's not the day where I can't get out. So that's a big part of it is just this bone-tired exhaustion that all of your normal remedies don't work with. The other piece of it is that it's really important. And we know this. In fact, I'll put a burnout assessment, online burnout assessment to send it to you for show notes. But one of the clinical definitions is a irritability and almost like a resentment or a bitterness towards those around us.

sort of the attribution of the exhaustion that we're having to the people that we work with and for.

Katie Wrigley (02:34.35)
And I'm smiling and chuckling for those who are watching this on video and not just listening to it because, who you just brought me right back into my corporate career. I got so burned out and I, like there, there were people I could probably go back and apologize to cause I was pretty nasty in the big burnout days and

Scott Anderson (02:43.892)
Hahaha

Katie Wrigley (02:54.358)
You also just helped me realize why I had resistance to watching Groundhog Day. It took me back. I have seen it and I enjoyed it, but it's not a movie I want to watch twice because that being trapped in that existence is a nightmare.

Scott Anderson (02:58.494)
Hahaha!

Scott Anderson (03:04.767)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah, it's pretty funny when Bill Murray does it, when you're going through it personally, it's a horror movie.

Katie Wrigley (03:14.786)
It is, it is. So what's not working with the normal advice out there that helped you start to create what you're doing now?

Scott Anderson (03:22.047)
You know, that's a great question and it kind of gets to the reason why I wrote the book, You're Not Toast. You know, the problem is that most of us become very good at solving problems. In your corporate career and in my entrepreneurial career, we get really good at solving problems. So whether it's, you know, changing a tire or splitting an atom or whatever, if it's a concrete problem, we get really good at it. And the problem is with burnout,

that's basically comes down to disturbing thoughts and emotions. Disturbing thoughts and emotions aren't susceptible to the same kind of brute force that we can exert on everything else. And in fact, trying to make disturbing thoughts and emotions go away only makes them worse. It's sort of, you've heard the expression or the analogy of saying to yourself, don't think about pink elephants, don't think about pink elephants.

The problem is that that tattoo is pink elephants on your mind. And if we're having disturbing thoughts and emotions around the exhaustion that we're experiencing or the unfair burden that is on us at work or the people who don't understand, unfortunately, disturbing thoughts and emotions don't react well to just brute force. And what most of us do because it's worked for us is that we work harder.

and we worry more. Those are the two knobs we tend to go to. And it works with a lot of other things, but it backfires completely when it comes to burnout.

Katie Wrigley (05:01.164)
That makes so much sense. a little bit in the work I do now, acknowledging those emotions as part of the way we unravel it. whenever we're trying to like brute force doesn't work for very many things. Even though we keep going to it, it just doesn't. So you mentioned sabbaticals before, like people take a sabbatical and then they come back. So why isn't that working? Why doesn't that help?

Scott Anderson (05:15.189)
That's right.

Scott Anderson (05:28.701)
Yeah, that's a great question. And what we found is that most of the people that we work with and talk to have already tried the kind of obvious things. Why don't I just have a good night's sleep or take a long weekend or take a vacation or even a sabbatical? And we've had a number of clients that have taken sabbaticals for as long as six months. We had a client in Poland actually, who took a sabbatical for six months and it was about two weeks before she was going back to work.

And she panicked because she was just as exhausted, just as irritable, just as uncomfortable as she was going into it. And the reason is because the way that the, and you this is, you know so much about this, Katie, in your practice, but the way that the human mind and body work to process stress is in the moment, ideally. It's in the moment.

And the problem with, you know, in America in particular, there's this sort of commonly held belief that we work like hell for 50 weeks and then two weeks a year, that ought to be enough to recover from everything we've been going through. But the way that the mind, body and spirit recover from stress and from trauma in particular, and I'm preaching to the choir here, is, as you said, is to actually be with the what's happened, the disturbing thought or emotion.

very briefly and allowing ourselves to release it on the spot. I use the example of, if you're in a car accident or let's say a near car accident where you're almost broadsided, there is a spike in adrenaline, cortisol, your blood pressure and heart rate go up, neuroproneprone, dopamine, all of the time appears to slow down and our mind and body prepares us for that moment.

And that's a very good, lucky, adaptive thing. But we're not meant to be in that state 24 seven. We're meant to be in that state when the occasion arises. And what most of us do, I mean, it really is an addiction. We get addicted to, you don't have to buy chemicals on the street. We've got plenty of chemicals in our own bodies and we get addicted to them. And we realize, my God, that sort of flow state where time slows down produces good results.

Katie Wrigley (07:43.015)
yeah.

Scott Anderson (07:53.523)
None of this is conscious, of course, but we get addicted to our own chemicals and to being in that state. And very much like any other drug, whether it's heroin or alcohol or any other drug, sooner or later, it reaches a point where it stops working. And we can take more and more of these chemicals, but the result is less and less and less. And ultimately, if we're constantly shooting adrenaline,

Katie Wrigley (07:54.574)
I'm not going to do that.

Katie Wrigley (08:10.403)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (08:21.363)
let's say 24 seven, it stops working. So that's really the problem is that we get stuck in a state that's meant to have a 90 second duration. Even if we're almost broadsided by a car, it's meant to have a beginning, middle and an end. And 90 seconds later, we, the adrenaline will begin to release and we can release the whole process and go back to more like normal functioning. So the idea that we can just, you know, for two weeks a year, release all of that.

Katie Wrigley (08:38.157)
Bye.

Scott Anderson (08:51.251)
simply isn't how the mind, body and spirit work. Whereas if we can release it in the moment, as we're experiencing it, the results are infinitely better. So instead of a six week sabbatical, for example, we preach five second mini vacations throughout the day. And that goes to the science of what actual burnout is and what the stress reaction.

how it actually works and also how we go through the cycle and release it.

Katie Wrigley (09:23.038)
I love that. that actually, that's a great segue into the next question I had is, so what is this burnout cycle that you're seeing and why do people keep getting trapped in it?

Scott Anderson (09:34.431)
Well, the main reason we get trapped in it is it is literally addicting. I we do become literally addicted to our own brain chemistry, but it's not just the chemicals, it's the outcome. So if early in our careers, particularly, let's say in our twenties or so, we compensate for lack of experience with compensating with just a huge amount of effort and also terrible boundaries, never saying no to anything. High achievers in particular have a combination of sort of perfectionism and

and raw ambition combined with no boundaries. And that gets rewarded. I'm sure you've experienced it, I've experienced it. But early in our careers, we don't know very much, but we compensate by working harder than anyone else and never saying no to any opportunity. That works really well in our 20s, but it doesn't scale in our 30s and 40s. And so most people, most of our clients, by the time they're 35 or early 40s maybe,

Katie Wrigley (10:09.87)
and

yeah.

Scott Anderson (10:32.019)
are beginning to notice, especially as they acquire more and more responsibility, plus a life outside of work, ideally, significant other, possibly even children, is that this just doesn't scale very well. This idea of never saying no and always being perfect doesn't scale when we've also got a spouse or a partner, et cetera. And we start getting these questions. It becomes an existential question.

You know, do I succeed at work or succeed at home? I can't have both. So what am I going to choose? And when we get to that kind of a gun to our head, that's when the wheels start to fall off.

Katie Wrigley (11:10.924)
Yeah, and unfortunately as humans, we tend to get to that point before we start to do something about it. And I really liked how you drew that out and I was reflecting, like I love what I do now and I have to watch the amount I work and remind myself to take breaks because I don't have that burnout feel, but I want to make sure I never have the burnout feel because I enjoy this work so much.

Scott Anderson (11:17.791)
That's right.

Katie Wrigley (11:35.266)
And I did not have that awareness when I was in corporate. So I started in IT first doing desktop support and then some network and system admin and data center management, late nights, change control windows, giving up weekends, giving up nights, giving up plans with friends. And then I went into cybersecurity, you know, that wasn't any less stressful and it had travel and it was 90, a hundred hour weeks. And you're right. I got addicted to the stress because.

Scott Anderson (11:55.799)
my gosh.

Katie Wrigley (12:05.046)
that allowed me to ignore the fact that I didn't feel like I was good enough. Because, if I'm working all the time, I'm wanted, I'm good enough. And I exhausted myself. The first five years I was in cybersecurity, I was probably doing 70, 90 % travel. I had no personal life at all. And that worked for me at the time, but it was horribly unhealthy.

Scott Anderson (12:10.004)
Yes.

Scott Anderson (12:28.637)
Yeah, well, this is the problem, you know, and I did exactly the same thing. And I think, you know, most of my clients do exactly the same thing. And part of it is because at a certain level it works. You are rewarded, recognized. And if there is a little bit of a black hole someplace in your soul that doesn't feel like you're enough, which is a theme that also is one of the common denominators of people with burnout, is that we sort of feed that black hole. Unfortunately, you can't.

like a black hole, there's no filling it. It's an inexhaustible, and this is where the addiction parallel kind of comes in. There's just, after a while you cannot satisfy the need. So we continue to chase it and chase it and chase it and chase it. so, you know, and then ultimately the problem is this, that it stops working, as you say. I mean, that's the wall that most people hit.

You know, I'm thinking of one of our clients, a really beautiful guy named Ethan, who when I first met him, like you said, was working 80 hours a week, six or seven days a week, wasn't seeing his family as three young children, wasn't seeing his spouse, wasn't enjoying himself, was truly miserable, but really didn't think there was anything else he could do, that that was simply it. And the reason that we started talking in the first place is because he realized

I'm afraid one day I'm not going to be able to answer the bell. The groundhog stay alarm is going to go off and some sunny and share is going to play, but I'm not going to be able to make it this time out of bed. And that's the horror that that kind of existential question that comes up is what if I can't get out of bed today? You know, the wheels are going to fall off quick if I don't answer the bell and be Mr. or Mrs. Wonderful again today. And so, you know, what we found is that it takes that kind of desperation.

But the good news is that you can really surprisingly quickly and permanently recover from burnout and not have to sacrifice. So many people are afraid, well, if I attain work-life balance, which is kind of a horrible word to so many people, if I attain that, that means that I'll have kind of a blah life. I won't be able to compete and receive the recognition anymore because I'll have to have work-life balance, which just sounds terrible.

Scott Anderson (14:49.405)
and maybe I'll be able to not get divorced, but that's all I'll have to show for it. And so what we have found with clients like Ethan is that actually it's possible to have a much better life beyond burnout and perform at a much higher level. So often people feel like if I don't stay in that hypervigilant state of post-traumatic stress almost that I won't be able to perform.

Katie Wrigley (15:17.176)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (15:17.327)
And that's very real as a feeling, but it's not reality. And in fact, for clients like Ethan, best, when he ultimately scaled back his work life from 80 hours, he now works two days a week, takes vacations whenever he wants. But his business has never performed better. and his life all around is better than his best day in burnout. But that's one of the biggest obstacles to recovery is the feeling that I'll have to settle for a life where.

I give up on dreams, both at work and at home. And the truth is that life beyond burnout is infinitely better.

Katie Wrigley (15:56.002)
I agree with you wholeheartedly and I feel like you went into my brain as you were saying that. was just recently and it's so funny how tricky our minds can be and despite the work I do, deep work the subconscious and the nervous system all the time and it still surprises me all the little hiding places that are down there that your brain will escape to to keep you safe. And it's just been in the last few weeks, like,

Scott Anderson (16:01.93)
Ha

Scott Anderson (16:15.199)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (16:23.778)
being fully honest that I've realized, I don't trust myself to be productive unless I'm stressed. I'm like, that's absolutely ridiculous. I don't have to be stressed to be productive anymore. And there was a lot of inner work I did to get to that piece. so when I had that awareness, I was able to just let it go. Go, don't actually have to depend on this to get things done now. I'm very self-motivated by the excitement of what I'm doing, by the value that I'm adding to people.

I can cut this whole stress thing out. But that wasn't the first time it had come up. There was another session that I had done at the beginning of the year where I'm like, I don't know what to do if I'm not stressed. that's weird. then I'm like, well, stressing about the business gives me something to do, or I could stress about this thing. And as soon as I thought of that other thing, I was like, ooh, it's easier to stress about the business. I prefer. And I'm like, what am I even doing? Why can't I just let it all go?

Scott Anderson (17:20.445)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's very, you know, it's very tricky, as you say, there are hiding places is a great way to describe it. And that's really the process behind this, this book, you're not toast is really to, get at those places and not in a, in our particular case, not so much in a psychoanalytic way. But I think, and this may parallel some of the work you're doing.

in more of a somatic way or to actually feel in your body where it is. I started a nonprofit for military families recovering from post-traumatic stress disorder. And one of the biggest problems is because this hits that part of us that is life preservation oriented, I it feels literally like life or death. And that's hard to describe to people who haven't been through it. But it feels like, yeah, I'd love to take the night off, but it feels like

Katie Wrigley (18:11.832)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (18:18.535)
I'm going to be at risk. I'll put myself and my family at risk if I don't work every hour that I'm awake. And it sounds crazy, but it really, that's why it's so sticky. Those Heidi places you described so well are right at the heart of self-preservation. And so, you know, the good news is that because a lot of our clients have already tried therapy or conventional therapy, or they've tried medication, they've tried meditation.

They've tried a lot of things which are very, very good to do, but they hit this place where they get stuck with, and they walk into the wall that you just talked about where, yeah, I'd like to do that, but it feels like I'll have to give up on my dreams or put myself and my family at risk. And that's really the, you know, that's where the action is, is to, and that's the core of our process, is to in a very general, practical way,

come in contact with that very fearful part inside, but to do it in a way that is not life-threatening or doesn't feel life-threatening so that you can actually do it. And that's very practical, very pragmatic, and something that anybody can do, even the most busy, overwhelmed person or the person who is

afraid of, you know, I don't have time or any interest in facing all of my demons per se, and which I totally understand. But on the other hand, there is still a way, and that's really this what our book is about, is how you can very practically and briefly even be with that and let it go, very much like the car accident, where you can go through that cycle.

Now we haven't done it in the past, but now we can do it. We can go through that cycle. These various near car wreck situations, we can go through it now and go through the beginning, middle of them and the end of that whole stress cycle, but this time let it go.

Katie Wrigley (20:21.314)
Yeah. I love that. I love that. I've heard stats like something like 70 % of Americans are in a state of fight or flight. And it's even worse in the UK. I think that was from Mel Robbins podcast. But when you're in that state,

telling yourself or showing yourself that you are okay when you take a rest, it's very counterintuitive because your nervous system is telling you on a deep level, I'm not safe if I don't stop moving. I'm not safe if I don't stop moving, which is going to interfere with sleep. It's going to interfere with your family time. And I'm curious what you think of this. I probably didn't do it in the best way, just full disclosure, but a couple of years ago, like I literally forced myself.

Scott Anderson (20:45.364)
It is.

Scott Anderson (20:50.965)
That's right.

Katie Wrigley (21:03.886)
to rest more. And it was really uncomfortable. Like I was like a cat being held over a bathtub. Like no part of me wanted to rest that much. But I was doing it to actually try to prove to myself that I had to keep going. And the opposite happened. My resting pulse went down and I actually got more done because I was resting. And I'm like, OK, now I have to rest more because now this is actually how I get. No, I shouldn't say have. No, I get to rest more.

Scott Anderson (21:05.589)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (21:09.919)
Yes.

Scott Anderson (21:28.873)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (21:33.356)
because this is actually how I get to be more productive. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.

Scott Anderson (21:39.581)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally agree with you. I mean, it is as this is the thing that makes burnout so difficult. I mean, and I tried everything, you know, and I would have done anything anybody suggested to get through my own burnout and tried a whole lot of crazy things, which didn't work. But you're absolutely right. The the beginning of the solution anyway, is to as

in as gently a way as we possibly can. I think about it as a kid being afraid of monsters under the bed. And because that's kind of what this is like in a way. And the feeling is, I'm not going to look under the bed because the monsters could have kept me basically. And as adults, it's sort of the same thing, but it comes down to that childhood fear, that kind of fear. And

Katie Wrigley (22:17.154)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (22:28.002)
Right.

Scott Anderson (22:34.761)
you know, what our program does is to very, very gently, very practically and in your own time and in your own way to look under the bed and to see it sucks, you know, that's what's under the bed. It's dust bunnies or, you know, it's that book I was looking for, but it's, until we very gently look, we will, we will continue to be trapped in this cycle. And, but the, but the key is

gently and in a way that people can actually do, you know, because your analogy of the cat over the bathtub is the way we all get. And it makes sense because it feels like for me, you know, I can't take five minutes off. I can't put my phone down. You know, I can't look away from social media or, you know, text messages or whatever, because very much like the cat, I think I'm going to drown. think I'm going to something horrible is going to happen. So.

Katie Wrigley (23:12.299)
Thank

Scott Anderson (23:33.097)
The key to this process is very practical steps that anybody can take and to very, very slowly, very, very gradually and very gently, but methodically look under the bed. And it's astounding, just as you found when we do that, we discover, it sucks, that's all it is. And you would think that that wouldn't generate much of a result, but if practice systematically that kind of an approach.

can undo all of this in a very short amount of time.

Katie Wrigley (24:06.988)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and thank you for saying that because what I've noticed through my own experience and through clients is the resistance to and the fear of peeking under the bed takes so much more energy than actually looking. And it's like, once you look, it's like, what was I even running from? I went through all that unnecessary stress and anxiety for socks.

Scott Anderson (24:23.903)
That's right.

Scott Anderson (24:31.733)
Yes, that's right. And, you know, while it seems simple, as you know, it's not simple when you're the person who's going to do it. And that's what I discovered in my own burnout recovery and had to try, you know, in the beginning I was, I'm a practicing male health therapist. In the beginning, trying to resolve my own burnout, I would just try anything I could get my hands on and 99 % of it made it worse.

But I stumbled into a couple of things that actually worked. And then I would share those with, I had a couple of clients that were also business owners or leaders that were going through the same thing. And I would say, just try this one very simple, but very counterintuitive thing. And they would try it and they would, know, we were just kind of, kind of eating our own cooking in the beginning. And ultimately started a group of burned out leaders that we'd meet once a week.

in my office and we would just, we would try these things. It was like a laboratory. We would try things. If it worked, we'd record that and try to refine it. If it didn't work and 99 % of what we tried didn't work. But that ultimately ended up in a process that was extremely practical because that's it. It's a solution that we won't use is of no value. And that's what we discovered. We found some things that would work but

very much like the cat over the bathtub. It's not going to happen.

Katie Wrigley (26:00.982)
Yeah, you and you brought up another point there in our worlds, especially when we're talking about wanting to change human behavior that's so deeply driven by levels that aren't even conscious. Simple and easy are not always synonyms.

Scott Anderson (26:13.108)
Yes.

Scott Anderson (26:16.883)
Yes, so true. And you know, the other part of that, and one of the things that makes it a little bit easier, we found, and this is why our program is in part a mastermind program, is that when you can get people together that are like-minded as maybe you and me and, you know, our respective clients, when people can talk about, yes, I've had that cat over the bathtub experience, or I've had that experience where my kids are looking me in the eye and saying something is

and I've had this happen, you're with us, but you're not present, you're somewhere else. If you've ever had that happen, you really feel like a shit. But it's one thing to hear that inside, but it's another to be in community with other people. And for them to say, yeah, I had the same thing happen, I totally get it. And we found that community is a big part of the solution.

Katie Wrigley (26:50.318)
the

Katie Wrigley (26:57.174)
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Anderson (27:14.739)
because one of the big attributes of burnout is the isolation. We isolate ourselves more and more and more and more from other people, in part because we are sort of victimized and or we feel as though we're victimized and we think they're the problem, but also because it just becomes so difficult to deal with other people. So isolation is one more of those counterintuitive things. It makes burnout worse. It's intuitive to do it.

Katie Wrigley (27:33.709)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (27:40.479)
but it makes burnout a lot worse. Whereas if we can be in community with people who are trying to do the same thing and are using the same very simple techniques, and you can see that not only they feel the same way and they've gone through the same hell, but they're starting to feel better, that community has a kind of an exponential effect.

Katie Wrigley (28:00.758)
Yeah, I love that you brought that up. So how did you go from you and your colleagues meeting once a week in your office and trying things to creating this program and writing this book,

Scott Anderson (28:11.953)
well, thank you. You know, the main thing we want I wanted to do was was scale. How do we help more people? I never dreamed that I'd ever get out of my own burnout. To be honest, I really thought I was screwed. And that seems to be a commonly held belief. And so when I began to notice, wow, I'm I'm feeling better. And I really didn't think I ever would. I thought I would die at my desk. I thought I would probably just stroke out or something. I don't know. But I never dreamed that I'd actually recover.

So when I began to, and then noticed that other people around me were recovering, I thought, boy, we've got to get this out. We've got to boil it down to as simple a set of practices as possible, and we've got to get it out to as many people as possible. And that's what we've tried to do. Anyway, so we created online coursework and videos that are part of our burnout breakthrough system, along with

weekly Zoom people join our mastermind group and can share their successes is the first thing that we do in their celebrations, but then report problems. And we've got people at various stages of recovery who can share where they're at. And the thing about the book mainly was to get a very low cost. The book has everything in it that we've discovered to this point, everything that works and nothing that doesn't.

So it's a very low cost way for as many people as possible to get access to what actually does work. You know, the other thing I'll mention, because again, when I was going through this, I was so desperate and figured that I'd never come out of it. We have a program called Fast Fix Call at fastfixcall.com. And so if anybody, any of your listeners are interested, it's a free call with either me or one of our coaches.

where we will usually give you a burnout assessment, the online assessment that I mentioned, and then give you some things that you can use right now for free and right this minute, because it really can become kind of an extremely urgent situation. We have had suicidal clients. We have had people who wish that the end would come. I mean, it gets that severe.

Scott Anderson (30:38.847)
FastFixCall.com is sort of a hotline for anybody who wants help.

Katie Wrigley (30:45.322)
Awesome. Thank you for that. And you're right, it does get to very severe situations really quickly too. So thank you for offering that resource. We'll make sure that that's linked in the show notes as well. I had something else come up as you were talking that was going to back up one of your points and it's totally poof. I remember what it was. As people get through the burnout, do you find that sometimes what they thought lack of burnout would look like looks completely

Scott Anderson (30:52.445)
it does.

Katie Wrigley (31:14.508)
different from what it actually appears to be.

Scott Anderson (31:15.679)
Yes.

Absolutely. We have a program for our program is called Burnout Breakthrough. And we have a program for graduates called Beyond Burnout. And part of what happens is that people say, wow, first of all, can't believe that I, know, my client Ethan that I was talking about one day said to me, I woke up this morning and the burnout is gone. It's just gone. And he couldn't believe it. And I had exactly the same experience that overwhelming stress.

That feeling of impending doom was just gone. And so, and it begs the question, well, wow, if I can get through burnout, what else is possible in all areas of my life? But that's what we find a lot after usually, I don't know, two or three weeks in our program, people say, it's gone. I mean, I can remember what it was and it's not like I can't recall what it was, but it's gone.

But it does beg the question, so what else is possible? And what we have found, and certainly I found in my life, is that all I wanted to do was survive it, if I could. And I found that instead, that it opens up a whole new life. Instead of thinking, originally I thought, well, I won't be able to work anymore. I won't be able to perform anymore. I won't be able to succeed anymore. And the opposite has been true. Every area of life has gotten

much easier and more fun and the talents and skills, the few I have and my clients, we found that it's just so much easier to access them now and to really enjoy.

Katie Wrigley (33:01.41)
I love that. Yeah, do you need to get that

Scott Anderson (33:05.414)
No, I'm sorry. I'm trying to figure out how to turn it off.

Katie Wrigley (33:07.97)
That's right. So say someone really wants your attention over there, Scott. no worries. This podcast is all about real life. Like I don't do any edits because life happens pretty much all the time and it makes it more comfortable for it to happen for other people in whatever realm they're in. If they see someone going through a less than optimal situation and like, okay. Nothing burned to the ground that day. Cool. So I just, my dog was barking earlier. So, you know, my cat's joining us. Like it's just.

Scott Anderson (33:11.291)
I tell, sorry about that.

Scott Anderson (33:23.625)
You

Scott Anderson (33:32.575)
That's right.

Hahaha

Yeah, I thought I had, you this is so typical. So I thought I did turn off my phone, but I didn't turn off my watch. And my God, you know, we actually, there's one of our trainings. We did some research and found that the average American spends 2.7 hours on social media, including our phones and everything else. 2.7 hours a day, it's astounding.

Katie Wrigley (33:38.146)
This is

Katie Wrigley (34:04.028)
Wow.

Scott Anderson (34:08.079)
And if you multiply that against 10 years, it amounts to like a year of your life, or more than that, I think. Anyway, it's such an easy thing that we forget we can turn the damn thing off. I failed to turn off my watch.

Katie Wrigley (34:25.006)
Yeah. you know, the other part of that is like, and with the Cognitive Movement team, actually they've done, or we've gathered a lot of extensive research. It's not just the time in social media. It's what it's doing your brain to have your eyes in that down position too. It's so bad for us. Like the polarized nature is one level, but then just the negative impact of having your eyes in the down direction, let alone what it does to your neck and everything else. it's just.

Scott Anderson (34:43.72)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (34:54.208)
It's horribly unhealthy. I'm actually like, I'm way below the average. like, I need to be on social media a little bit more, like, because it's part of how I get my messaging out there. But it's been such a good break to walk away from that, you know, and as I was really carefully starting this business and I'll be four years full time on May 5th. doing this on May 4th. Thank you. And it's, it's been one of the biggest challenges I've ever.

Scott Anderson (35:03.263)
Ha ha.

Yes.

Scott Anderson (35:18.185)
Congratulations, that's wonderful.

Katie Wrigley (35:23.66)
done but one of the things I realized along the way because I had heard of all these people like I work 20 hours a week and I get all this time off and like I sat there I'm like I actually want to work more than that because I get so much fulfillment after out of what I do and it doesn't drain me to be doing it either but that's also the double-edged sword that I got to watch is because it doesn't drain me

Scott Anderson (35:39.487)
Sure.

Katie Wrigley (35:48.014)
I have to be more cognizant of breaks. Like after you and I wrap, I'm gonna fix myself a nice healthy lunch and then I'm gonna go out on this beautiful sunny day with my dog and get in some nature before I go on to the next thing that I'm gonna do. And that's.

Scott Anderson (35:55.795)
Yes.

Scott Anderson (36:00.425)
You know, I'm so glad that you said that because one of the bits of science about burnout, a woman named Christina Maslach at Berkeley is one of the, I guess is the most knowledgeable person, she's in her 80s now, about burnout, has done the most research. But one of her findings that I found to be really useful is that what's necessary when we're in a stress situation,

or in an overwhelmed situation is to completely disengage from it. And so this is the problem with, you know, even if you would walk outside but bring your phone, not that you would do that, right? But if we do that, if we would say, I'm going to disconnect but bring our phones, then we haven't completely disconnected. And what the science says is that it doesn't have, we don't have to spend hours away from our desk. In fact, five minutes can have a huge impact, but we have to be completely disconnected.

Katie Wrigley (36:56.866)
Yep.

Scott Anderson (36:57.013)
And that doesn't just mean that we don't have our phones or our Meshugano watches or whatever, but that we are psychologically completely disconnected. And that takes some doing. In fact, we have training specifically on that, but that's the science of it is to be completely disconnected. Even for as little as five minutes, it's very much like going through that complete stress cycle of a near miss car accident. The key is the recovery period and to come back to

a neutral state, which we, most of us don't allow ourselves to do, but it's that complete disconnection that's the key.

Katie Wrigley (37:34.03)
Absolutely, you know, and you're bringing to mind a conversation I have with a client about a month or so ago. He's a police officer and he was almost worried that he was doing as well as he was because he's had a really stressful winter. And then as we're talking, he's like, you know, when I'm off work, I'm off work. Like I do not think about work. I do not do any police work when I'm off. I'm off. And I'm like, that's how you are as functional as you are.

Scott Anderson (37:59.924)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (38:04.254)
It's because you're taking those breaks and you're doing this work with me, which is helping to clear out some of those things that you've pushed down in your nervous system. Cause police officers are fantastic at pushing stuff down even more than regular humans are. They're excellent about pushing the, and all of us are skilled at that to a degree, but law enforcement officers in my experience take it to a whole new level.

Scott Anderson (38:16.003)
yes.

Scott Anderson (38:25.72)
yeah.

Katie Wrigley (38:26.154)
it's how they survive. That's one of the ways that they survive it. And so there's also that cat over the bathtub thing again, like they don't want to look under the bed, but there's different techniques and stuff that I can use that allows them to get that out. And they're like, I don't even know what was bothering me. I'm like, you don't have to, it's not relevant. We just want to rewire the neural pathways so that you have more ease and peace. if it's not important, your brain is not going to bring it to the surface. It's just going to clear it out. And that's what we did. And now you feel better.

Scott Anderson (38:43.679)
That's right. That's right.

Katie Wrigley (38:55.959)
Yay!

Scott Anderson (38:56.329)
Yeah, boy, that's such a great thing. Our PTSD program at EASE USA also serves fire police and rescue. And you're so right. mean, fire police and rescue have the stress that's even beyond combat in the sense that it's constant. My crazy phone is still ringing. I'll have to figure out how to turn this off.

Katie Wrigley (39:18.018)
Yep.

Scott Anderson (39:24.425)
But because it's constant, even more than combat. mean, it's 24-7. It's trauma every single day. But that, think, is such great testament to what's possible. And that's really the kind of mastery that I think we want for our clients, that it doesn't seem possible, but it really is, that you can decide when.

Katie Wrigley (39:28.792)
Yep.

Katie Wrigley (39:32.547)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Anderson (39:49.269)
you know, in an accident, it's a reflex and that's a very good thing and it happens automatically. But, you know, I use the analogy of Michael Jordan when he played for the Bulls and was always the guy that should have the ball in double overtime because he would report being in a flow state where time slowed down very much like being in a car accident. But Michael Jordan wasn't in that state 24-7 and he didn't need to be.

And what he mastered was to be in that state when he needed to be. And that's really what we're talking about here. that you don't have to, so many of us are kind of all or nothing kind of people in this who have gone through burnout. But in fact, what we teach and what's possible, and obviously you've achieved this for your police officer client, which is so great, Katie, is that you can ultimately decide, you know, it takes practice, but it's definitely possible. can decide.

It's not always double overtime and you have the ball from the three point and you've got to sink the shot. Sometimes it is, but rarely. one of the life beyond burnout is about being able to decide I can turn it on when I need to. I can be in that state when I need to, but you know what? 99 % of my life I don't have to be in that state.

Katie Wrigley (41:05.452)
Yeah, and that takes some practice to learn. I've really loved this discussion. So before we wrap up, Scott, where can people find you? I'm going to make sure that I have all the necessary links in the show notes so they can reach out directly.

Scott Anderson (41:08.756)
That's right.

Scott Anderson (41:17.104)
thank you.

Well, if anybody wants to talk right now, including right now, go to fastfixcall.com and it's a free call with one of our coaches to get you some help right now, kind of first aid, triage kind of a thing. And we'll give you some things you can use right this minute, right now today. If you'd like to find out more about our book, You're Not Toast, go to burnoutbreakthrough.com and you can get...

our book and find out about the whole program. But yeah, Burnout Breakthrough is a great place to go.

Katie Wrigley (41:55.33)
Thank you. Yeah, and I'm really excited to dive into your book. I'm very happy that I got a copy. Can't wait.

Scott Anderson (42:00.381)
Yes, well, I'm so glad you get to read it. Thank you so much, Katie.

Katie Wrigley (42:04.074)
And before we wrap up, is there one thing that you would want to leave with the listener today who is really struggling with burnout? What is one message of hope that you can give that person so they reach out to the Fast Fix Call and start to reverse that burnout trend?

Scott Anderson (42:21.845)
Well, that's it. mean, the message really is you're not toast. That's why we called the book what we called it's not toast sort of implies a permanent state. You can't go back to being bread once you're toast. And the fact is you you're not toast. There really is hope. And the solutions are there. They are, as you said, they're very counterintuitive, but they're but they're not there. There techniques you could start using right now today.

There is absolutely hope and in a very short amount of time you can quickly and permanently break through burnout.

Katie Wrigley (42:56.898)
I love that. And I love the title of the book. meant to say that earlier. The You're Not Hosted very clever. So thank you again for your time today, Scott. It's been wonderful to get to know you. You're about the work you're doing out there. And thank you for the work you're doing. And to the listener out here today who is struggling with burnout, reach out to Scott. The links are in the show notes. Go grab those over there. And until the next episode, please be well.

Scott Anderson (43:00.91)
Thank you. Thanks.

Scott Anderson (43:07.551)
Thank you, Katie.