Red Light Therapy for Pain Management with John Graham Harper

In this episode of the Catapult Effect podcast, host Katie Wrigley interviews John Graham Harper, a master trainer and founder of Lumaflex, a revolutionary red light therapy device. John shares his personal journey from competitive athlete to discovering the healing benefits of red light therapy after suffering injuries. 

He explains the science behind how red light therapy works at the cellular level, its various applications for pain management, cognitive health, and overall wellness. John emphasizes the importance of integrating red light therapy into daily routines and encourages listeners to explore its benefits as a natural alternative to pharmaceuticals. 

The conversation concludes with a call to action for listeners to try red light therapy before considering more invasive treatments.

Takeaways

• John Graham Harper founded Lumaflex, the first FDA Class II cleared portable red light therapy device.
• Red light therapy can enhance athletic performance and recovery.
• The science behind red light therapy involves cellular energy and mitochondrial activation.
• Red light therapy is a natural treatment that can help with pain management.
• John emphasizes the importance of education in understanding red light therapy.
• Red light therapy can be integrated into various wellness routines and modalities.

Resources

Lumaflex Website
Instagram
YouTube
Facebook
X - @LumaflexbodypPro
TikTok

Credit: Tom Giovingo, Intro & Outro, Random Voice Guy, Professional ‘Cat‘ Herder

Mixed & Managed: JohnRavenscraft.com

Disclaimer: Katie is not a medical professional and she is not qualified to diagnose any conditions. The advice and information she gives is based on her own experience and research. It does not take the place of medical advice. Always consult a medical professional first before you try anything new.

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:00.519)
Welcome back to the Catapult Effect podcast. I am your host, Katie Wrigley, and I have an amazing guest with me again today. I actually first heard of him on the Chris Voss show last year, and I am thrilled to be able to bring you this guest today. John Graham Harper is a master trainer with over 15 years of experience in the fitness industry, excelling in gym management, fitness technology, and operations. He founded John Graham Fitness, worked with elite athletes at Mission Hills, and co-founded multiple gyms.

John also launched WCFN, White Collar Fight Night, a successful charity boxing event for executives. After experiencing injuries in his fitness career, John discovered the power of red light therapy, leading him to found Lumaflex, the world's first FDA Class II cleared portable, flexible, and waterproof red light therapy device. Lumaflex is designed to enhance athletic performance, recovery, and overall wellbeing. Under John's leadership,

Lumaflex has garnered prestigious awards like Time Magazine's Best Innovation of 2023 and Lifespan Certification 2024, positioning it as a leader in the fitness and recovery industry. His mission is to mainstream the use of red light therapy for optimizing health and performance worldwide. Welcome to the Catapult Effect podcast, John. I am thrilled to have you here.

John Graham Harper (01:19.874)
Thank you so much, Katie. That's quite an introduction. didn't know I was... It's nice to have it read back to you. That's wonderful. Yeah, we've come a long way. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (01:25.693)
I know what you mean. When I hear my bio sometimes, I'm like, wow, thanks.

Would you be willing to share with the audience a little bit of your journey? led you to, we talked about a little bit in the intro, but on a more personal side, like what was happening in your quest for fitness that led you over to red light therapy?

John Graham Harper (01:48.01)
Yeah, I was, I started out as a very serious competitive athlete. I think I was chasing something, chasing validation, right? Chasing self-love, self-gratification. But yeah, I mean, I it's something that I think is innate in a lot of athletes and high performance athletes, but it's just something you got to be aware of and manage. You don't want to let it get too destructive. But it was very destructive back in my early days, looking, you

Katie Wrigley (02:03.111)
familiar.

John Graham Harper (02:17.876)
looking for punishment, looking for the aggressive challenges. So I had a lot of injuries that I had in rugby and in amateur boxing, but I was doing quite well. But just obviously the injuries kind of threw me to another sport. That was kind of where I would stop a sport is when I would get too injured to continue on. And then I would go and try to do another sport. finally, with boxing, I had a tumor in my head through micro traumas in the brain.

Katie Wrigley (02:47.897)
my gosh.

John Graham Harper (02:48.12)
And after that, I was advised not to do any impact sports for a while. I went into bodybuilding after that, did quite well. I averaged like second place in a few competitions, but I wasn't really, it wasn't really a competition that suited me where you could really compete against somebody. Like in the ring, it's such a wonderful experience. get such a lot of, it's such a thrill, you know, to be mando, mando in the ring with someone. But all that, all those injuries obviously really

taught me to be more humble, be more aware of my inner self rather than focus on my mental and emotional health rather than just my physical health, but my wife introduced me to red light therapy.

And I was healed after it was about two weeks using this lamp that was quite cumbersome and very difficult to use. was a good device. It worked. And that lamp is still in most hospitals. It's like a device more for the medical side. But it triggered an interest into red light therapy. I went down the rabbit hole of all the wonderful benefits that happen with light, the cellular mechanisms that happen with increased blood circulation, increased ATP and anti-inflammation.

Katie Wrigley (03:48.018)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (04:01.746)
these, you know, all the how we can actually service so many different human conditions. But the product development got my interest because I want to build something that was more tailored to me as an active individual who is on the go. So mainstreamly red light therapy is for sure the goal because it's such a powerful treatment. It's natural, right? It's available to us from the sun, but it's not used as much as it should. It's kind of in the biohack

Katie Wrigley (04:25.105)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (04:32.653)
optimizers, know, these sort of this sort of community and a lot of the information that they put out about natural treatment, it's a little it's complex. And I think your average person who's sitting on the couch, dealing with lower back pain or dealing with neck pain or dealing with stress, and all they're trying to, they don't relate to it. And they're just just trying to get through their day, right. So I, I want to kind of package red light therapy, make

Katie Wrigley (04:43.069)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (04:56.411)
Mm Yeah.

John Graham Harper (05:01.488)
it you know almost trendy to adopt and and that's where Lumaflex I think can fit in quite well with a very portable easy to use durable flexible and yes this one is environment and temperature tested so it's fully waterproof so it's something that I believe we're you know we're not just innovating the light therapy we're not innovating portable devices we're we're innovating people's time because you can really take it with you and use it you don't have

to adapt to the product, the product can adapt to you. So, you know, we're innovating that the shower space, you know, when you're in a bath or in an ice bath or in a jacuzzi or in a sauna or you're something and you're in an environment that may be treacherous, you know, like I'm even looking at introducing this to the military. So that's kind of the whole mission of LumaFlex is to innovate on people's time and introduce and mainstream

Katie Wrigley (05:52.859)
Ooh.

John Graham Harper (06:01.2)
red light therapy to the masses, know, to the to every and any and all people, not just the informed biohackers and the, you know, the, you know, people that are up to date on all the latest Andrew Huberman and Joe Rogan and Gary Brackett information, but anybody that is, you know, I want it to somehow filter down to those people that truly can use it, right.

Katie Wrigley (06:03.665)
Wow.

Katie Wrigley (06:22.907)
Yeah, I love Huberman and Rogan by the way. And I think you're doing a fantastic job at mainstreaming this because I'm hearing more and more people start to talk about red light therapy and the benefits of this. So can you tap into a little bit of the science? I have so many questions for you. But if you can tap into a little bit more of the science behind why red light therapy works, especially for people in pain. And I love that this is something people can do on the fly, you know, because I love cognitive movement, but you have to stop do a session.

Whereas if there's definitely occasion to do something on the fly where I may not have a half an hour, an hour to stop and my back's trying to signal me and I don't have a chance to really pay attention to what's in it, I don't have that space to do my normal techniques, your Lumaflex device would be amazing in those cases. So I'm gonna stop talking so you can tell us about the science.

John Graham Harper (07:09.976)
Yes. Yes. That's right.

Yeah, like that was, it's great. Like the science is something that everybody is trying. It's, people explain it and they explain it in ways that again, are very complex. It doesn't stick with you. You don't relate to it and you're not going to take the first step to introduce it into your life. So when launching the product, you know, before, like you mentioned the Chris Voss show those years ago, wait, it's like a year ago maybe. And it was like years. And, but we were at that time,

Katie Wrigley (07:26.909)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (07:37.873)
Yep, just a little over a year ago, yeah.

John Graham Harper (07:44.164)
it was all about the product. Innovating a great product and the product is everything. Product is the solution. it's not education is a very key part of it and people want to understand. So where we are right now with Lumaflex is I've launched a whole the Lumaflex Academy, which I'm bringing on a large team of scientists that are all launching different courses. And the main goal with this, with the Lumaflex Academy is to package the information so it's digestible, it's easy to adopt.

And we've launched the first course which is the luma flex foundations course and in that we go through You know that the science of red light therapy the understanding of the luma flex product line Why portability why touching skin and then most importantly it gives you information about actually how to? To apply it how to use it and even not just for yourself, but your family and friends You know your clients, you know your trainees people that have questions. I have this this pain. I have this condition

Katie Wrigley (08:34.916)
Mm.

John Graham Harper (08:43.666)
you're able to give them some advice and support. So anyone listening, if you want access to the foundations course, just send me a message on my Instagram, give me your email and I'll give you full access. That can be something special. I want to get the word out there. And it took a long time to build this initial course and now it's just about getting it out there.

Katie Wrigley (09:01.169)
Thank you.

John Graham Harper (09:08.034)
very quickly what you have to remember about red and infrared light is it's from the sun. It's nothing special. It's not like some magical thing that was made in a laboratory. It's just from the sun. And we're exposed to red and infrared light all the time. Optimal times is sunrise and sunset. You know, that's where we get a lot of pure red and infrared light. that, those wavelengths of light, we've taken those nanometers and we put them into a device and you're getting a very high dose of those wavelengths. So the wavelengths that we

Katie Wrigley (09:24.221)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (09:37.92)
we have here in the Lumaflex are 630 and 850. 630 is red light, which goes about an inch into the body. Infrared light can go much deeper. So 850 with an infrared light goes about four inches into the body. And that's sort of the difference with the nanometers is the distance that it goes into the body. So addressing surface level pain and then addressing deep tissue, a deep bone pain, joint pain, arthritis, things of this nature, right? So the wavelengths of light are

Katie Wrigley (09:52.007)
Mm.

John Graham Harper (10:07.846)
penetrating your skin and activating your mitochondria. Your body is, as a human, you're made up of cells, billions of cells. The driver of those cells, the engine, know, the things that make the cell go is the mitochondria. So if you're giving energy to the mitochondria, the cell can do its job. So a misunderstanding that a lot of people have is, is the light healing me? Yes, it's healing you, but how works is the light gives your cells energy and the cells heal you. So it's giving your

Katie Wrigley (10:36.774)
Okay.

John Graham Harper (10:37.932)
Your body energy to heal itself. It's the same as if you know, you're plugging in your phone Right when your phone starts to run out of battery, you know, the app start to get slower, right? You're sort of like, uh-oh, you know, I got to find a cord I got to find I got to get it charged It's the same with our bodies when we're drained and we're depleted of energy when we're you know, we're lethargic We need energy and we're like a solar panel and the light can give us energy, right? So this if we think of it that way that's sort of a very simple way to understand

Katie Wrigley (10:47.868)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (11:00.263)
move

John Graham Harper (11:07.488)
But then from there, as people research more and more and more, you can understand the very deep mechanisms of the cell and actually how it works. And this is all wonderful information that is covered in that course. And I love the way we packaged it, that my head scientist, he's actually the head of our education, Peter Forehand, he's very good at getting complex ideas of light that are still not really integrated into

Katie Wrigley (11:35.293)
Thank

John Graham Harper (11:37.344)
to any education system in the world. There's not really a course or a degree on light therapy out there right now.

So he's very good at packaging it and making sure that, you know, let's start from, you know, how can we make a four year old understand it? And then we can work from there. And anytime we need to, we can come back and simply explain it. Your body's like a battery and you're a solar panel. You're taking energy from the sun and it's giving you energy. So with that in mind, like pain management, it does, if you're talking about light, you're talking about cellular health, you're talking about cellular energy. So it doesn't just serve as pain.

pain. does anything that the cell needs to do. can do. So that's where you see devices for the head, right? To help you grow hair. You see masks, beauty masks to help boost collagen in your skin. are devices that are used, very funny, but a little, to help you increase testosterone for men. there's a, I've seen devices on the market that are in like clinics to support male testosterone and they

Katie Wrigley (12:28.784)
Hmm.

Katie Wrigley (12:44.348)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (12:45.73)
put it on their jewels and it's to help them to be able to have a baby. There's a lot of devices out there but at the end it's all working on a cellular level. That's how it works.

Katie Wrigley (12:48.273)
On the goods, yep.

Katie Wrigley (13:01.061)
And that makes total sense to me. And I'm not, I'm not going to try to explain the science because I can't, can't, don't understand it deep enough, but I, I've, I've researched this and what I love about what you're saying, you're gathering my attention more and more. And I'm sure the listeners are feeling the same is when basically

our body has all kinds of shortcuts. And when you learn how to hack those shortcuts, you have amazing health. And that's what you're talking about with red light therapy, if I'm hearing you correctly, is you do something that red light activates at the cellular level. And then those cellular levels are now, those cells are now activated to help you heal, right? Yeah.

John Graham Harper (13:36.856)
That's right, exactly. I mean, it's the most simplest way that it, and if we keep hammering home this message, this is where I think we're gonna get more adoption of red light therapy. People will start saying, it's actually like there is some science behind it. I understand it, I should try this. Maybe I'll put away the pills, maybe I won't get a prescription or get a surgery. Maybe it's worth trying this first because at the end of the day,

Katie Wrigley (13:48.316)
Yeah.

John Graham Harper (14:06.762)
There are lot of light therapy brands out there. And my message always with my team, you know, as the company is growing and we're very much global, I always tell the team like we're not in competition with other light therapy brands. We're in competition with pharmaceuticals. We're providing a natural means to address these issues. So let's focus on not competing with each other. We're in the same family. We're growing the industry. We're growing the awareness and we all need to help each other.

Katie Wrigley (14:20.669)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (14:26.834)
Yes.

John Graham Harper (14:36.716)
out because it's still so vastly unknown and it's not the impact that we want to achieve all of us I'm sure in photobiomodulation we are we are still a few years away from it being widely adopted.

Katie Wrigley (14:40.913)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (14:51.823)
Yeah, and I there's a couple of people remind me after we wrap this, but there's a couple of people I want to connect you to who would love what you're talking about. And they are in front of huge communities and it gets you exactly where you were saying you wanted to dive more into military. They've got direct access. So just remind me about that later. My mind is going. Yeah.

John Graham Harper (15:10.348)
Yes, please. Yeah, my question with the military is to because I think there's a statistic out there, 44 suicides from veterans a day. Some very serious, it's a very serious problem. And I think when I've been involved with some veterans organizations and some of them provide natural treatment. And it's wonderful when I see how people transform. There's one actually in Boca. It's like 40 minutes from the office.

Katie Wrigley (15:22.738)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (15:26.3)
It is.

John Graham Harper (15:40.664)
And it's amazing work that they're doing. So I wanted to like start doing sponsorship programs where, you know, I can have people, you know, different vets in different areas of America that I can start sponsoring units for because it's transformative. And something that actually hit me, there was a guy, a lot of my friends have gone to the military and they have these conditions. And me personally knowing them, I've been able to support them and they found relief, they found healing. But one gentleman in particular,

met at a veterans organization event. He was a reserve and he told me his story about how he was given experimental drugs and it was a very sad story. He was telling me he was very open like he was I was surprised to hear this story at an event, you know, just standing there while you know, but he was very open about it. He didn't he sort of had that whole like I have nothing to lose attitude, right? But I recently found out that he committed suicide. He just couldn't handle it anymore. It was very

It was really because I remember, you know, someone you just meet. remember his face. I can't even remember his name, but you know, like it's it was it was just a very sad story that, you know, life's very short. And a lot of times these things can easily be prevented. And we're not talking about doing some magical, you know, drug in a laboratory that's got it's it's natural. It's available to us. It's outside all the time. It's just a higher dose and it's concentrated. And there's there's a very

Katie Wrigley (17:06.118)
Right.

John Graham Harper (17:09.944)
simple protocol you can do and you could potentially save someone's life, right?

Katie Wrigley (17:15.141)
So is there any risk of sunburn or is it not those waves? Is there any risk of sunburn or is it not those waves?

John Graham Harper (17:19.928)
Sorry, say again.

Yeah, so actually red and infrared light support boosting your body's SPF. So it actually conditions your body against the harmful rays of light, which are the UV light. you'll see people actually get less and less sunburned the more that they are exposed to red light. It's something that I should have known as a kid, a little white boy, know? My mom chased me with, you know,

Katie Wrigley (17:51.171)
Yeah!

John Graham Harper (17:54.656)
sunblock come on put this on. should have just done but yeah it's that those rays of light come throughout like red and infrared light available to us right now but UV light is available as is is what's prominent and that's catabolic to ourselves that you know that hurt our bodies so you know we want to be waking up at sunrise you know back like in Bible times we wake up at sunrise we get our red and infrared light and then throughout the day we would be less in the light we would we would be

Katie Wrigley (18:11.325)
Okay, right.

John Graham Harper (18:24.636)
shelter but still just this pattern of wake up sunrise and sleep at sunset we would be very conditioned we would are you know back in those times we were very conditioned on our skin to deal with the UV light.

Katie Wrigley (18:30.257)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (18:40.701)
Right, and that makes sense, and we didn't even have SPF until...

John Graham Harper (18:40.786)
Yeah, actually funny too, is that you know those tanning beds, you know the tanning beds that you know, like there's a lot of discussion of like it's harmful for your body and all this because yeah, I mean, it's it's UV light, right. But they're actually designing tanning beds, which have like the UV light and then red light, they like stack them together to support like, you know, actually destroying your skin for those later years. Because you know, you've seen those, you know, you've seen those

those 80 year old guys running on Venice Beach and you look at them and you're like, wow, like their skin is just almost falling off, right? So maybe there's a way in which the tanning bed market can continue if they incorporate the red and infrared light nanometers. We'll see.

Katie Wrigley (19:29.853)
That's amazing. And so it sounds like you're conditioning the skin against sunburn by exposing it to different light waves from the sun so that it's more tolerant to the UV. And it makes sense that we would have, and I'm sorry I talked over you before, it's the audio on this, like we talked about as a little off. But it makes sense that like back, like caveman days, we were actually much healthier even though we had a lot more threats.

John Graham Harper (19:40.835)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (19:56.689)
We actually had less stress then and we were much healthier because we had our circadian rhythms down. And these devices that we rely on so much, now we've got a fake source of sunlight that tells our brain to wake up when we want to go to bed and it's throwing. So not to mention all the toxicity that can come out of that device. That's a conversation for another day. But everything you're saying makes a lot of sense. So it sounds like there's a lot of applications. And so I'm thinking about

John Graham Harper (19:56.802)
That's right.

John Graham Harper (20:15.18)
Yes, that's right.

Katie Wrigley (20:23.581)
The clients that have come in to me, like, what can this do to help someone who's had a head injury or a cognitive decline, Parkinson's, dementia, Alzheimer's, et cetera? I'm gonna pause there and I got so many more questions.

John Graham Harper (20:35.158)
Yes, so for like for the probably in photobiomodulation, I feel that the most interesting area in photobiomodulation science is eyesight. It's amazing the science that's coming out about how actually eyesight can improve. People don't need to wear glasses anymore when they start looking at red and infrared light, like up to three minutes a day. That's very exciting. Joe Rogan talks about that. He said he like didn't need to use glasses anymore. But that is something that like for

For me, the manual, when I give the specs, putting on my Lumaflex cap, I always say, don't look at the light, keep your eyes closed. It's something that I have to say. But it's interesting how it's becoming more more used to support eye health. And then the other area is the brain. Probably the most exciting area is the brain. Now, the thing with the brain is you need a very deep nanometer to go into the brain. And that's when you're talking about using light

Katie Wrigley (21:13.906)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (21:34.88)
therapy to potentially cure and support Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, dementia, right? And there's a lady I know, she's a scientist who specializes in this and her device is called the SeroThrive. And the nanometer that she has for the headpiece is 1,070, a very deep nanometer. So this can service your brain if you're feeling like you need a morning boost, I'll wake up and I'll get the device

and I'll put it on my head, but in terms of actually, you know, supporting neurodegenerative diseases, you need a very deep nanometer. So looking at devices for the brain, I think there's about four companies which are quite prominent, incredible research, you know, behind them. They all have like science boards and research labs and Serrathride, this brand being one of them, is all of them will have very strong nanometers, nanometers that go deep into the brain. That's kind of a...

is where the magic happens in terms of like actually servicing and potentially even curing, dare I say, you know, these neurodegenerative diseases. But if you look up Sarah Thrive, you can see all her clients, they all have these conditions with the brain and you see some of their testimonials and you see how they are slowly transforming back and reversing these conditions. So that's very, very exciting. That's like the medical side.

Katie Wrigley (23:04.38)
Wow.

John Graham Harper (23:04.496)
But amazing, amazing where we're going to be in five years. It's going to be great with this technology.

Katie Wrigley (23:10.199)
I can't wait to see it. It sounds incredible. I'm definitely going to get that information before we wrap too, because there's a few people I have in mind that would be really interested to hear about it. What other applications could you use your specific device for? I'm thinking selfishly here. I always seem to have a runny nose. It's gotten so much better as I've done a lot of holistic work.

I'm still, when I get out into cold weather, my nose starts running. Is that something I could use it for, like putting it over my face and helping to clear up that last little bit of irritation in there?

John Graham Harper (23:41.624)
Yeah.

Surface level right so that's that's this like if you have a nanometer. This is a dual a dual nanometer so that means One ship has both red and infrared in one ship so the red light actually Programmed into the LED supports the infrared light going in so anything surface level like Sinuses is always something that you could use use this device for but where I really like this is FDA cleared for hair loss and for skin rejuvenation

Katie Wrigley (23:54.63)
Okay.

John Graham Harper (24:12.17)
rejuvenation. Like I have a I have I think it's six awards I have now for product design and I have another design award coming from I think it's Cosmoprof. It's like a beauty show and even though that's not my target and I'm not really I'm not really focused on the the beauty market at all. There's other devices out there but what they liked about this was because of the nanometers it is cleared for skin rejuvenation. So

Katie Wrigley (24:18.46)
Wow.

John Graham Harper (24:42.134)
women buy it because when they buy an LED mask that can only service their face whereas with this can service all those other areas any pain conditions all of this even their even their head but then they can just apply it to their face but with but luma flexes is the the message i always push is pain management that's where i want to make the impact and that's where i feel like people will will try like if you're dealing with pain you have something that you've tried everything and you don't

want to try pharmaceuticals and you're sort of looking for an alternative I feel like that is the person that will say okay I'll try light therapy let's see how it works so all my messaging and branding is usually like to do with to you know to provide a solution to pain and that's pain like from you know everything from post training you know pain like muscle pain you know to arthritis to you know real chronic pain I had a guy in New York a couple of

Katie Wrigley (25:14.749)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (25:41.84)
weeks ago, we filmed this video of this testimony. It was so inspiring. This guy like had a shoulder, a sore shoulder for like, it was the number of years, like 20 years. He was like, I haven't been able to sleep on this shoulder, you know, for this whole time. Like this is always, it's like a stiff shoulder. And we gave him, we gave him, you know, the LumaFlex. He tried it for 10 minutes. And then he was moving his shoulder around and he ran off and he called his wife and it was, it was, was a nice thing.

Katie Wrigley (26:00.199)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Wrigley (26:08.018)
Wow.

John Graham Harper (26:11.792)
you know, and you film something like that, you're like, wow, it's a very powerful testimony. But those sorts of reactions, they happen, but it's all people's responses are always different, because everybody is different. Everyone is different ages, they have different backgrounds. They didn't have they have different levels of inflammation, like you were you were mentioning, like, you know, back in caveman times, you know, even though, you know, there were there were dangers in terms of like getting attacked by a by

Katie Wrigley (26:16.027)
Wow.

John Graham Harper (26:41.696)
wild animal, we just didn't have the inflammation that we're always exposed to now with our phones, with artificial light. know, we're always... Inflammation is something that is just so prominent in our world now. You have like, you know, let's say Samantha has lost her job, right? She's lost her job and she's gonna, you know, she's gonna lose her house. So she's stressed, right? So she has inflammation. Then you have, you know, Billy who has cancer.

Katie Wrigley (26:45.021)
.

Katie Wrigley (26:53.562)
yeah.

John Graham Harper (27:10.156)
You know, and they have different, they both have inflammation, but some is much more significant. So when they use red light or they take on a treatment, the responses is gonna be different. know, like they're, you it's gonna probably be a very tough battle to, you know, to fight with cancer versus the lady who's feeling a bit stressed because she's lost her job, right? it's inflammation varies person to person and people's response rates, people's like internal

Katie Wrigley (27:16.23)
Yeah.

John Graham Harper (27:40.09)
batteries, you know, fill up and deplete at different rates. So you'll get like, you know, like that gentleman with the shoulder, you'll get a case like this. And then you'll see another case where, you know, some guy did a bicep workout, and he's like, you know, my biceps are sore. And it may take like two, two days for him to find relief, you know, so it's always it's always different to each person and when but what I can say with light therapy, the rule that

Katie Wrigley (27:44.444)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (28:10.032)
I have with this device is I have I worked with 10 minutes so the timer on the device this has 10 minutes so you turn it on after 10 minutes it turns off so I worked with the 10 minute time frame and I said what's the what's the maximum amount of dose that I can give in 10 minutes that I can really promise a pain some pain relief and from that time we worked backwards but the rule with this device is you must touch the skin because you know like when the device

Katie Wrigley (28:37.745)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (28:39.856)
devices far away, some people may get a good dose, but some people won't. It's kind of a hit and miss. Whereas if I apply it to the skin, I'm not losing any treatment. The light is not, you know, reflecting or dissipating anywhere. So I can in my spec sheet, the powered output, I can promise you that that's what you get in 10 minutes. So that's the thing with treatment for any device. I would say to guarantee a result is have it touch skin. Don't let the light reflect.

Katie Wrigley (28:46.673)
Mm.

John Graham Harper (29:10.737)
and but also there is benefit to having a device like this but that's more for an overall well-being you know outcome not so much a pain treatment outcome if that makes sense

Katie Wrigley (29:24.037)
It does, it does. Because again, you're talking about activating at the cellular level. So if there's something off there, the cells actually have the intelligence within them to know what they need to do to fix that, to get those cells back into a healthy state. So in the absence of those cells that need repair, it's going to go out throughout the body. like it kind of reminds me almost like autophagy. Like when people do intermittent fasting, it's going to take like, OK, here's part of a cell here. Here's part of a cell here. It's going to kind of put them together instead of having

cells that aren't as functional, it's going to kind of glue together what's there. And I don't think that's what I'm hearing you say, but you're basically you're activating those cells that may not be that healthy in there. And so if there isn't some kind of chronic condition, the result will be the overall wellness. Am I getting that right?

John Graham Harper (30:11.02)
That's right. Yeah. Like you, we, we tell them to aim at the pain, aim at the condition, but just like you said, the cytokines will travel to the area that has inflammation and will service that area. mean, like you said, the body's extreme body's incredible. It's, it's incredible. Cells are, are, their own intelligence and it's a very, it's a very amazing thing to see, and act to be part of this space in photobiomodulation in this community where you have access to so much clinical research.

Katie Wrigley (30:30.151)
yeah.

John Graham Harper (30:40.944)
you know, on the cutting edge as it develops day by day. It's very, very exciting. I see in five years time, I think every person, at least in the modern world, will have three devices that have red light therapy or light therapy. Maybe it'll be for beauty or like a pen, you know, to help, you know, with blemishes and one for pain management, maybe one, you know, larger device at home. But I think you'll see an average of three devices

Katie Wrigley (31:13.531)
I think that would be a very healthy world. know, and I love how you keep differentiating between the pain and the beauty markets, and they are very different markets. But as a female who's 50 and who has other aging friends, the aging process can actually be really painful. And so if there's easy things we can do to help not look our age from the outside, I know a lot of women that are going to take that. Like for me personally, I decided before any of the collagen started to leave my body,

John Graham Harper (31:36.216)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (31:42.649)
that I'm not one that's going to go for elective surgery. My body doesn't like surgery. It's just not a good idea for me. But I encourage every person to do whatever makes them feel the best. And the chances are you're going to feel the best when you're going inside and you're doing that inner work.

but it doesn't mean you can't find some fixes to help boost your body's natural resources and replenish some of what you may have lost over the course of time. And that alone, just feeling better about yourself, that can help lower pain even without putting a device directly on it. So I actually see kind of, I see why the beauty industry keeps coming to you because there's an indirect correlation. And you know, a lot of times you can see in Hollywood the pain.

of aging with a lot of these actors and actresses that are getting really extreme plastic surgery. And like you see them from one movie to the next year. Like, who is that? Like, what what did they do? And it breaks my heart because they're beautiful people like they wouldn't be in Hollywood unless they are beautiful and they they don't see it. And there's so much judgment with aging, too. But. Yeah, it is. And especially with women like and I'm not.

John Graham Harper (32:36.578)
Yes.

John Graham Harper (32:48.504)
That's right, I think it's the judgment. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (32:55.229)
trying to make men bad here, but we get kicked out of things a lot earlier in life than men do. And it's just the way things are right now. I don't want to go down that tangent in there, but I did want to kind of bring home, like, this actually does touch on the pain of aging in a very easy, very discreet solution you can do in your home and feel good about doing that. I'm a big fan of any little natural things we can do to boost our wellness.

John Graham Harper (33:18.446)
100 % exactly exactly right. That's true

Katie Wrigley (33:23.645)
Are there any contract indications? Like can this work like I had a knee replacement and I have a bunch of scar tissue. Would I be able to use it over that or is it not safe to do with a prosthetic?

John Graham Harper (33:35.958)
No, I mean, there's no, there's really no, no negative side effects to red infrared light. It's just the sun. It's only if where the, where the issue is, is if somebody has a skin condition where they are allergic to light.

Katie Wrigley (33:50.427)
Mmm, okay.

John Graham Harper (33:51.414)
you have those, and those people are aware of it and they're cautious about going outside. But like speaking of contraindications, like, you know, there's no, no one wants to do a study on heart conditions and red light therapy, because it's, you know, who's gonna do that study? No one wants to, you know, a study on pregnancy and red light therapy, right? But like, it's just...

Katie Wrigley (33:57.351)
Right.

Katie Wrigley (34:14.406)
No.

John Graham Harper (34:18.444)
You know, but if I take off the Lumaflex hat and I put on, know, and I'm talking with all these photobiomodulation scientists who devoted their lives to red light therapy, they've devoted their lives to it. They don't, it's all they do. They eat, sleep, breathe red light therapy and they've studied it. They've been part of teams. They do their own research. They will tell you like any condition that comes up, they'll say, you should apply red light therapy. You should apply. Like that's the first thing you should do.

But of course in my manual I say things like don't use if you have a heart condition, don't use if you're pregnant, know, don't use, don't look at the panels, you know, with the naked eye. Like I have to say certain things like this that obviously, you know, to maintain is, you know, it has to be safe. can't, I've got liability. But if, you know, taking off the Lumaflex hat, would encourage anybody to go down the rabbit hole and learn about all the amazing

Science that's done because the FDA is the FDA is very tricky like the FDA I can't make a claim and I can I can say red light therapy does this I have to be you have to be very careful in the messaging and the terminology because the FDA is very very very tricky on this but for example with the brain with You know Alzheimer's Parkinson's these these these these diseases, right? There is lots of clinical research to support vast improvement

Katie Wrigley (35:34.406)
yes, they are.

John Graham Harper (35:48.168)
using red light therapy for those conditions, but all of the in order to get Approved by FDA you have to pay a lot of money. It's like millions millions of dollars you have to pay and then Then and I think the process is like maybe two three years Right, and then if the brand or if the product whatever whoever's building the product that is making you know the submitting it they have about like

a year to launch their product, to sell it, because once that approval is out there, other brands can use them as a predicate and they can launch as well. But now, like there's no FDA approved device for those conditions, but there's clinical research that supports it. And another funny thing that like, just how the system is broken, like if I want

clinical study on say, you know, arthritis and red light therapy. I have to pay for that study. It's like an average, you know, some studies are like $100, $200, like $400, depends. I have to pay for the study. But the team, the science team that did the research, they have to pay to the publisher. And then the publisher charges me. And I was like, wait, that's broken. should, what I would love to do,

is create a platform where basically I wouldn't charge to publish, you know, they could just, but obviously that they would have to trust my platform, right? But it's just, I feel like the money's going to the wrong places is basically what I'm saying. It's like we're just pulling things down. We should be speeding it up. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (37:34.621)
Yeah, don't get me started on that.

Katie Wrigley (37:41.317)
Yeah, and we have similar challenges with cognitive movement. Like we can, we aren't covered by FDA. We're not medical, even though that's where everybody wants to put us. But it's, we help symptoms of, the stress of, the mental part of. Like I can't, even though we've had miracle after miracle, we can't say we cure anything. And we're fine with that. Like, but we anecdotally...

Cognitive movement has been involved with multiple cases of spontaneous remission with several different conditions, including cancer. But I can't say we cured it. But cognitive movement was a part of someone suddenly not having life-threatening tumors anymore. And there's been several cases of that. So, but yeah, the FDA is definitely tricky. That's a whole other foggiest episode to go into, John.

John Graham Harper (38:32.024)
Yeah. That's a dark tunnel.

Katie Wrigley (38:35.887)
The last thing I wanted to touch on, because I think we've covered everything, I'm going to definitely make sure we don't leave anything on the table that you didn't want to talk about. But one of the things that it had mentioned before we did this interview is that this is pretty easy to integrate into a wellness routine. So what is the easiest way? Someone could grab this device, like what do you recommend for someone who wants to try this? Maybe they're just trying to boost wellness or maybe boost their cognition a little bit more, helping to go against some of the...

distractions that come with all of our devices and conveniences, or maybe they're in pain, where would you want that person to begin to start to integrate the LumaFlex into their daily wellness routine?

John Graham Harper (39:12.962)
Yeah, that's the whole, that's the big message. Well, basically to generate partnerships, to generate reseller network is showing how you can integrate with this device into everything from a yoga session, Pilates, a stretch session, a massage session, acupuncture, salt therapy, hyperbaric chamber, sauna. You can optimize your existing modalities, your wellness modalities by stacking them with

with red light therapy and it's going to the product design something that is liquid. This is liquid silicone. Liquid silicone is a very tough material to use, but after two years of development we created it's extremely durable. It's very soft to the touch. I get comments a lot just about, you know, the actual feel of the product is quite, you know, it's welcoming. It's like a welcoming sort of nice product feel that and but creating this flexible device that allows it to be molded to joints and

muscles and makes it very durable in environments. This is something that you can you can work out with this device on. There's so much research that shows performance boosting by integrating red light therapy into your actual workout. There was a study done. It's on PubMed where there was they discuss about the unfair advantage of in competitive sports where in the future it's going to be almost in the same category as steroids because if team A is using red light therapy pre

game and team B is not cellularly they have an advantage and that needs to be taken note of you know in competitive in high level competitive sports where you know like basketball or you know basketball for example is you know it's always it's if like the teams are always so close right a slight little advantage could mean you know the game right so that's exciting where you know red light therapy is now the discussion is not like does it work there's from one side

Katie Wrigley (41:04.849)
Mm-hmm.

John Graham Harper (41:12.652)
They're saying it works so well. We have to you know, we have to regulate it, you know in competitive sports, right? We got to be careful We can't just let everyone use it and not let the other team know So yeah, like that, you know that with the body pro with an environment and temperature tested product This is a product that can integrate into your current wellness routine in Whatever it is with the way you wake up in the morning You can put it on your head to help you, you know to get you energized for your day If you're taking a shower, can go with you in your shower

if you're at a wellness center and you buy like a circuit, like a, you know, like a longevity circuit and you do these rounds and you do an IV drip, you know, you may do some cupping, you may do some sauna, you can take it with you and you can stack red light therapy with the, you know, these existing modalities and you can optimize what you get back and you leave, you leave, you know, knowing that you've got more bang for your buck, so to speak, right? That's a, this is an exciting thing that we're, you know, we're developing now towards the end of the year.

that's sort of the discussion in wellness is they call it hack stacking. know, where it's now it's like, you know, red light therapy and this red light therapy and this and this it's quite a it's nice to be able to fit in there and I don't see any other any other devices now that are able to do it they're not as versatile. We've got that versatility element right.

Katie Wrigley (42:16.975)
Nice.

Katie Wrigley (42:32.901)
Yeah. Your product sounds absolutely genius. I cannot wait to try it. I am definitely going to go buy one myself. Like I can think of applications for myself, for my family. Does it work on animals? Just, my gosh, I'm totally going to use my dog's supposed to have surgery in a couple of months. She was actually supposed to do it on Monday, but I decided to wait a couple of months and I wanted to do energy healing, cognitive movement and

John Graham Harper (42:48.194)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (42:59.929)
It's for me, so I know where the injury is. So I could put this device on her and it'll help heal it.

John Graham Harper (43:05.11)
Yes, yeah, it's so funny because like when I first started getting into light therapy and researching I saw devices for pets and I was like, that's so sweet and it was like but now like in in the company we're having discussions about like wow, you know, we need to get on top of this. We need to we need to now sell, you know, like little little dog pouches or something so that the because people will buy this now for their dog and the dog, you

Katie Wrigley (43:06.641)
so excited.

John Graham Harper (43:35.084)
Like even at trade shows at conferences people will come and they'll say I want to get one for my dog It's all and I was like wow, this is this is a this is a whole area like they there's something very That's usually is in horses race horses. There are devices out there like they're like five times the size of Lumaflex that you apply to the horse and they will they will spend any money to optimize their horse like the horse red light therapy market is

Please.

Katie Wrigley (44:05.405)
Bet. Yeah, horses are no joke level of money and winnings and especially like Kentucky Derby and the all and then I'm not into horse racing, but I know that there's three big races. And if you win all three of them, you've got like a ridiculously expensive and valuable horse. And I can imagine they are going to put millions of dollars into keeping that horse's health up because that horse is going to keep making that money year after year after year. So their ROI is pretty immediate from what you're saying.

John Graham Harper (44:12.941)
Yeah

John Graham Harper (44:23.788)
That's right. Yes.

John Graham Harper (44:34.764)
That's right. Yes.

Katie Wrigley (44:36.811)
my gosh, this is so exciting on so many levels. Is there anything else you wanna make sure we cover? I'm gonna make sure all of your links to your social handles, all of that are included in there, especially Instagram, since you invited people to reach out to you and you're gonna send them the class. Thank you for that. Is there anything else you wanna make sure we cover, John, before we wrap?

John Graham Harper (44:53.26)
Yes, please. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, right now my main focus is just to get the education out. We have other products set up for next year, but I'm now very much focused on building our education. So more people that come in and are able to view and actually get benefit from our education is a very, very important thing. But also anyone listening, basically, if you're new to red light therapy, I always say, get on the light train. The train is moving. We're going places. Get on. You're welcome.

Katie Wrigley (45:23.055)
Yeah

John Graham Harper (45:27.266)
Welcome to join just get on the light train very simple go to like YouTube don't you don't even need to go to PubMed you don't need to go to read clinical research Just go to YouTube type red light therapy. What is it? Watch a couple of videos but get on the light train. It's it's something that I've seen just in my personal life. I've seen profound change relief, you know, very heartwarming inspiring stories just in my personal network

Katie Wrigley (45:44.412)
Nice.

John Graham Harper (45:57.166)
with my friends and family. And I've heard about, like I had one lady, I met on a plane, introduced the, because I take it with me on the plane, right, to help with my, because I'm international travel, you're kind of like, am I supposed to sleep or, you know, so it helps to regulate your, your circadian rhythm. And there was a lady next to me, sweet lady, she was, what is that? We got into discussion. And she had like some loss in her family, she had some, you know, and she had like a six sister, you know, and then she

Katie Wrigley (46:11.239)
Yeah

John Graham Harper (46:27.136)
she emailed me and so I set her up. She got a product and then she emailed me and she was like, I think it was a miracle. met you, you know, like things like this. It's very, very, very powerful. Very, very powerful. And it keeps not just me, but the entire team and everyone in photo by modulation, very inspired. So, and it's not just pseudo science or something that is like, it's a fad. Join the train, get on the train. Trust me. That's my final message. Get on the train.

Katie Wrigley (46:54.621)
I it. Get on the light train. Yeah, and try the light before the knife. That's something else that was coming to mind, like for people who are considering surgery, try the light before you try the knife. It's gonna be a lot easier. And the worst thing that happens, take it, take it. Yep, try the light before you try the knife. I I tried a wacky looking ball before I tried a knife and I never had to go to the knife. So try the light, it could work. It sounds like there's a good chance it will work.

John Graham Harper (46:59.226)
Yes.

John Graham Harper (47:04.662)
I love that one. I'm gonna take that. That'll be the line I take from Katie. Just dry the light before the light. That's it.

John Graham Harper (47:19.512)
There we go. I love that. That is great. That's such a great line. We could get a t-shirt made.

Katie Wrigley (47:26.596)
You should, you should.

John Graham Harper (47:29.548)
get t-shirt, try the night, the light before the night, bang. Thanks so much, that's a wonderful line, I love that.

Katie Wrigley (47:35.513)
Good, please, please use it as much as you would like. And thank you so much for your time today, John. This has been so informative. I'm so excited to have this episode get published and have people start to go out, grab LumeFX and start to immediately benefit yourselves and make sure you also utilize John and his offer. Go out to his Instagram. It will be in the show notes. Send him a message. Let him know you heard him on the catapult effect and he will send you that program so you can learn more about red light therapy and the science behind it and how it can benefit you.

John Graham Harper (48:06.072)
Thank you.

Katie Wrigley (48:07.41)
Thank you and thank you listeners for joining us today. I know that you have a lot of choices of what you can listen to out there and I appreciate you spending your time and entry here with us. And until next week, please be well.