The Power of Intuition with Jenn Johnson

In this episode of the Catapult Effect podcast, host Katie Wrigley speaks with Jennifer Johnson, a registered nurse from Ontario, Canada, who shares her experiences working in emergency rooms during the COVID-19 pandemic. Jennifer discusses the emotional toll on healthcare workers, the importance of intuition in nursing, and her journey of writing a nursing novel titled 'Nursing Intuition.' She emphasizes the need for self-care among nurses and the significance of hope and communication in patient care, especially in end-of-life situations.

Highlights:

• Intuition plays a crucial role in nursing and patient care.
• Writing can be a therapeutic outlet 
• Self-care is essential to avoid burnout.
• Hope is a powerful tool in healthcare, both for patients and providers.
• End-of-life conversations are vital and should be approached with care.
• We often remember negative experiences more than positive ones due to their protective instincts.
• Creativity can flourish even in the most challenging times.

Resources:
Jenn on Instagram
Jenn on LinkedIn
TikTok
Pre-Order Nursing Intuition

Credit: Tom Giovingo, Intro & Outro, Random Voice Guy, Professional ‘Cat‘ Herder

Mixed & Managed: JohnRavenscraft.com

Disclaimer: Katie is not a medical professional and she is not qualified to diagnose any conditions. The advice and information she gives is based on her own experience and research. It does not take the place of medical advice. Always consult a medical professional first before you try anything new.

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:00.888)
Welcome back to the Catapult Effect podcast. I am your host, Katie Wrigley, and I have another amazing guest with me here this week, Jennifer Johnson. She is a wife, mother of two and a registered nurse in Ontario, Canada. She has spent the last 16 years of her career in the ER of

Jenn Johnson (01:06.489)
It's not life or death.

Katie Wrigley (01:29.442)
big and small hospitals all over Northern and Southern Ontario. She has personally been a part of all the heartbreak, drama, bullying, life to death moments, and then also trying to cope with the ER during a global pandemic. Her debut model, Nursing Intuition, How to Trust Your Gut, Save Your Sanity, and Survive Your Career launches on October 29th, and it is her rally cry to all the other nurses struggling through this pandemic.

and finding that they're losing their love of nursing. Thank you so much for being here today, Jen. Welcome to the catapult effect.

Jenn Johnson (02:04.665)
Thank you so much, I'm so excited. Thank you very much for having me.

Katie Wrigley (02:08.594)
really wanted to have this conversation because we've got nurses leaving the profession in droves, which is a problem on so many levels. And I also consider ER workers to be part of first responders because you guys are, picking up the stuff that they're picking up on the street. It's not any easier for you guys than it is for the, maybe you aren't in as much danger as they are, but you still are, your psyche is going through things.

that the human psyche is not meant to go through on a daily basis and it's going to take a toll.

Jenn Johnson (02:40.771)
Yeah, it's a lot. And even just trying to come at it where, you know, nurses are frontline responders too, you know, we try. Could I be a paramedic? Absolutely not. I do enjoy when they bring the chaos into my domain and I know exactly where everything is and, you know, have got a fairly safe idea as to what is where and who is where and whatever else. I know where the exits are kind of thing. But yeah, we do.

Katie Wrigley (02:52.223)
That's insane.

Katie Wrigley (02:57.772)
Thank

Jenn Johnson (03:09.623)
those that make it to us sometimes don't make it past us. So it's still very traumatic. Absolutely, you know, is it every day? No, thankfully. But the days that hit hard, they truly hit hard.

Katie Wrigley (03:27.84)
Yeah, I can just imagine. Thank you so much for being a nurse, being in the profession and staying with it for as long as you have, especially considering the toll the pandemic took. So I understand both for your bio and from our interactions before this interview that COVID actually sparked some creativity in you and that is what led you to create this book that is coming out at the end of next month. So can you share a little bit about what was happening there that led to the inspiration that's going to be this book?

Jenn Johnson (03:57.593)
Yeah, so when everything shut down in March of 2020, my children were four and five, four and a half, five and a half. And, you know, it was just going to be a week. Then it was just going to be two. That was just going to be a month. And that was just going to be two. And it just kept kind of dragging on. And when things first really were bad, well, when everything first shut down and everybody was super scared and the fear was at an all time high, we

Katie Wrigley (04:10.748)
Thanks.

Jenn Johnson (04:26.539)
Lots of people volunteered for services for us. Lots of people brought in food and they banged the pots up this way and all the great things. And the other great thing was, you know, we had attorneys offering to do our wills for free. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if we weren't already kind of thinking about the message that we weren't going to survive this, that really kind of

Katie Wrigley (04:41.528)
Ooh, I just got chills.

Jenn Johnson (04:50.773)
Not that it wasn't necessary, absolutely. Everybody should have a will in place and everything organized, especially with children in the mix. And thankfully, we already were okay that way, but it was just like, so the expectations, I'm gonna die. Wow, okay, that's something else. Okay, so you're kind of leaning with that. You're scared, you don't know. And again, the ER, we don't know who's positive. Like it's, you know.

They're still trying to get the tests going. They're still trying to figure out what's happening. Tests are taking like two days to come back. so people who were potentially positive or positive, you know, they sat in the ER until those test results came back and then they'd move out of the ER. Even though there could have been beds on the floor, they wouldn't move out of the ER until we had that negative. And then for a long time, if they were positive, they would actually go out to a sister site where they had dedicated COVID units.

So it was with that and then we had no daycare. My parents weren't able to come down. My husband's mother wasn't able to come down and nor did we kind of want them to either. We didn't want to put them at risk. But then there's no school and there's no daycare. And my husband's also a frontline worker. it was like, okay, so how do we go from, I guess I'm working straight nights, which fine, most of my career has been straight nights. It's not a big adjustment.

But it was like staying up all day with the kids, getting no nap before going to my first shift, staying up all night, potentially. Thankfully with everybody not coming in, we actually got like half decent naps, like two to three hours sometimes. So to have a nap at work, come home, stay up all day, nap when my husband come home and then go back and just the cycle. And so by the time August, middle of August or middle of April rolled around, I was completely out of my mind. I shouldn't have been nursing.

Katie Wrigley (06:29.356)
Okay.

Katie Wrigley (06:42.178)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (06:43.865)
I should not have been caring for others because I was in no place to even care for myself. So it was that kind of hitting rock bottom, drinking kind of took an uptick, scared, eating like crazy because I'm like, if I'm gonna die, I'm just gonna eat six bags of these Snyder's kettle corn type of pretzel bites that I'd never found before. I'm like, these are amazing. I'm just gonna keep eating everything.

Katie Wrigley (07:12.824)
Comfort food, comfort food, yeah.

Jenn Johnson (07:13.209)
Comfort food and it was like, you know, well, what does it matter because like I may not survive? So let's just you know, lean hard into that and so Leaning into it and the more time passed the more it was like, okay Well, if I die and I've got the four and five year old at home How do we explain to them that I chose to continue to go to work? Like how does one? Potentially try and decrease that trauma that they're going to have later in life. And so the idea was like, okay

Katie Wrigley (07:40.258)
Right.

Jenn Johnson (07:42.421)
Maybe if I write down all of my really, really good stories about people that I'd helped and situations that I was in and things that went well, maybe that would help and kind of explain a little bit as to why I kept going in. But of course, with the good, know, the bad, those stories stick way harder than the good ones. So for every good story, I had about five bad stories. So and then it was this cathartic thing where I just started writing and...

you know, the stories came out and the more I sat in these stories, you know, I finally was feeling like I could work through them. Not that I was in any place mentally to work through them, but, you know, I was just going with it. And so, you know, looking at these stories and going back and kind of going through like all the bullying situations and all this other garbage and you're just like, here's this like thread that's like just weaving through the stories of intuition. And I hadn't really noticed it before.

And sure enough, Llewellyn, who's a book publisher in the US, who's, you know, esoteric and tarot and intuition and all these great, you know, kind of woo woo topics, they were having online book fairs. And so they get their authors to come on and talk about the books. And one of the authors was talking about her book, Intuition at Work. And it was listening to that where I'm like, I use that every day. Like, whoa, okay. Let's take a step back. Let's kind of look at the stories.

And sure enough, here's this little thread of intuition that's working through all these stories. And I'm going, okay, well, I get that I understand that. But I can't exactly bring that out without having some science behind me because being in the medical field, you know, we are very much science driven and rightfully so. But, you know, on a lark, I'm like, I wonder if there's any chance of like any science around intuition. Maybe it's just psychology. Maybe it's, you know, a couple of things here and there.

But like, let's just see. So not only was there a ton of information on intuition, like 20 years, 30 years worth of scientific evidence -based things in intuition, there was also a ton on specifically intuition in nursing. So I'm like, okay, if that's the science, that's the science, let's go. And so then kind of piecing it together and explaining intuition and how to trust your guts and what does it feel like and how do you then...

Jenn Johnson (10:04.023)
bring that feeling forward to other medical people who you want to potentially look at your patient and say like, hey, I don't have a great feeling about this. How do you explain that to somebody who you may or may not know if they're kind of okay with this idea of trusting your gut? So going through the science and weaving my stories and it just kind of, so it wrote itself. It was six weeks. I do not remember writing it.

I was like, okay, like I do remember staying up really, really late. I do remember waking up really, really early and like voice dictating occasionally and like going back and forth through the stories a couple of different times to try and tweeze out the story. So it actually is more than just a two minute kind of quick story that we throw at each other as nurses. And then I was like, okay, like, all right, so this is a book.

Katie Wrigley (10:33.472)
Wow, I've heard of that happening. Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (11:01.089)
what am going to do now? So I'm like, okay, well, let's try, let's send this off to publishers. And so was accepted to a traditional publisher and waited two years. And unfortunately, just, I think this past May, June, they decided that they were actually going to go back to kind of their physiotherapy book roots and not publish it. And I'm like,

You've got to be kidding me. I mean, I should have seen it coming. They gave me multiple options, like multiple times where I could have gotten out where they're like, you know, if you if you want to take this out to somebody else or if you want to do it yourself, like, you know, just let us know. And that's cool. And I'm like, no, you said yes, the contract signed. It's yours. So it's like, OK, well, now that it's back to mine, I didn't realize that I missed it until it was back in my kind of, you know,

property rights were back into my hands and I'm like, I didn't realize I missed those. And then it's like, well, it's been two years. I'm not waiting. I'm not applying to another publisher to chance it that this is gonna happen again. I had applied to a multitude of publishers originally and it was all no's except for that one. So I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna, we're just gonna do this ourselves. Like that's just it, you know.

Katie Wrigley (11:57.954)
Wow.

Jenn Johnson (12:17.901)
The Gritty Nurse podcast had just put out the Wisdom of Nurses that just came out in April this year at Times New York bestseller. And it was traditionally published. There's movement on the nursing stories kind of end of things. So I'm like, okay, why don't I just do this myself? That's just the way we're gonna go. So then all of a sudden having to come up with the cash to pay an editor and a different editor and a cover designer and PR people and all these things. And it's just like, man, that's...

you know, 10k American to publish a book, you know, if you're doing it yourself and you want it done well, it's roughly 10k. So I'm like, okay, well, yeah, it's not cheap. Watch out for vanity publishers, those who like chase you to be like, we want to publish your book, da da, but you're still paying them is kind of ridiculous. So just be very careful. There's a lot of scams in regards to books.

Katie Wrigley (12:58.124)
Good to know.

Jenn Johnson (13:14.466)
and hybrid publishers versus vanity publishers. There's a lot going on there. But it's like, you know what? It's an investment. It's mine. If we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it right. So let's just go. We'll put it on the line of credit. We'll pick up some agency shifts. We will fund it that way. And we'll go from there. And so yeah, here we are. It's T minus like not even six weeks and I'm losing my mind.

with like, my God, like getting everything teed up and ready to go. And it's like, you know, I've been telling people for two years that it's coming. And then finally I'm like, I have a date, it's here. Like you can order it on Amazon, like pre -order, my God. Like it's nuts.

Katie Wrigley (14:00.034)
So exciting. want to pause there because you touched on a few things that I really want to go back to to kind of draw out a lot of what was happening under the layers. So you had mentioned the lawyers coming in and we'll do your wills for free. So there's so much science around hope. And so I do a lot of work in the heroic app. Yeah. And you have you heard of I think it was I don't remember if his first name is John, but Stockdale.

Jenn Johnson (14:06.691)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (14:10.531)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (14:15.118)
Mm -hmm.

Jenn Johnson (14:19.917)
Yes. Yes.

Katie Wrigley (14:28.336)
who was a POW in Vietnam. So they, they call it the stockdale paradox. And I, I don't want to muck it all up and try to go into that, but basically like, just, just his story in a nutshell, his, his plane gets shot down. He's able to evacuate lands at the parachute in the middle of this little town has enough time to be like, okay, there's no way for me to hide. There's no way for me to get out of this. They're going to capture me.

Jenn Johnson (14:31.555)
Mm

Jenn Johnson (14:39.725)
Ha ha!

Katie Wrigley (14:57.784)
and it's going to be years before I get out of here. And he looked at the reality of the situation and he was in there, I think he figured it was going to be at least five years. I think he may have been in for seven. But the amazing thing was other people who were other prisoners of war, they kept thinking they were going to get out at Christmas or Easter or Thanksgiving or their birthday and then they didn't and they died because they lost hope.

Because cocktail said, all right, I'm in this for the long haul. He knew he was then planting a seed in his mind saying, okay, someone is gonna rescue me someday. It's not gonna be today. It's not gonna be this year. But he had that hope of a future rescue. And that is what kept him going when other prisoners of war died because they lost that hope. So those lawyers doing that, even though they were probably just trying to be helpful.

Jenn Johnson (15:24.813)
Mm

Jenn Johnson (15:47.609)
Mm

Jenn Johnson (15:52.128)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (15:52.162)
They were getting rid of that hope when you are already getting bombarded with fear. You're hearing raw human emotion every day when people are losing people. We weren't allowed to see our loved ones even as they were dying of COVID. So then you've got the horror of watching someone die alone, separate from their loved ones. You've got their loved ones that are gutted because their person is dying. It's fucking horrible. It's just, it's...

Jenn Johnson (16:20.502)
It was not good.

Katie Wrigley (16:22.232)
It really, and I want to emphasize this so people understand because everybody got impacted by COVID. There's not one human being on earth who was alive in 2020 who was not affected by this virus in some way, shape or form. Some people way more than others, but everybody got hit by it. Really bad. And understanding part of why it hit us so hard.

is really important to helping to repair that damage and coming out of it. And hope was a huge piece of that. And then the other thing you said is it was so much easier to remember the bad stories than the good. That's your nervous system. So our nervous systems, our brains, your nervous system is there to protect you, right? And your subconscious mind, the whole thing that it wants to do is keep you safe and alive. No big deal. Just keeping you safe and alive. That's it.

Jenn Johnson (17:12.568)
Just an everyday, it's fine.

Katie Wrigley (17:14.872)
So it's gonna do whatever it needs to do. It doesn't care about logic, doesn't care about reason, definitely doesn't care if it's being rational or not. It just wants to keep your butt alive. And so it's going to, hey, do remember the bad thing that happened? It's right here. And it's not gonna, right, and the good story's like, well, the good story's safe, but did you remember this time? Staying the bad story, this deeps a safe, and it's not true that staying in the bag keeps us safe, but that's how the nervous system is wired. So being able to unwire that.

Jenn Johnson (17:21.921)
Yes. Yes.

Jenn Johnson (17:27.915)
It's here!

Jenn Johnson (17:34.616)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Wrigley (17:44.094)
and intentionally look and say, all right, today was a shit day, but hey, this really great thing happened. Let me just spend a moment in that energy and let yourself feel that energy of, okay, this actually had a good ending. I'm gonna glom onto this one because my body feels so much better holding on to this good news right now than all the other crap I had to go through today. But we're hardwired that way, Jen. And so we will...

Jenn Johnson (18:06.519)
out.

Katie Wrigley (18:10.764)
It's not you being negative. That is the way your brain is wired to keep you safe. And with what you're saying, your stress is super high. Like I almost wanted to make a smart ass comment of like, so COVID was stress free for you, right? Changing everything. It's like it was brother. Right.

Jenn Johnson (18:22.775)
Right? was so easy. It was just like a walk in the park. It was no big deal.

Katie Wrigley (18:29.072)
And not physical stress that working nights does to the body because you're going against the normal circadian rhythm. So you've got extra psychological stress from the pandemic. You've got the physiological and then you have the stress that comes with shift work. And then you've got lawyers being like, hey, by the way, just in case you die, got your back.

Jenn Johnson (18:48.289)
It's fine, it's fine, it's all fine. Just don't worry about it.

Katie Wrigley (18:49.932)
all of those factors are gonna be playing back in the subconscious mind on anything that you're working with and that's normal to go through that. And so I wanna shift over and go directly into, I'd really love to hear, like I understand it, but I don't even know if I could explain it, but what is the science behind intuition? What exactly is our intuition and what you have seen from the science -based research you've done,

Jenn Johnson (19:17.945)
Yeah, so I mean, the easiest way to explain it is any woman over the age of 12 knows exactly what intuition feels like. You walk into the bar, you walk into a room, you walk across from somebody and you're just like, factor, like just an immediate visceral response without you thinking about it, without you initiating it, it just happens. And when we're in the scenarios where we're alone

Katie Wrigley (19:37.952)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (19:42.317)
Mm

Jenn Johnson (19:45.899)
are by ourselves, we're walking, we're, you know, doing the things, we're ultra aware of our surroundings, again, just as a survival response. So it's one of those things where that's the feeling that when you bring that into nursing, you know, you're triaging a patient, things are looking okay, the story's not bad, it's not great, but it's not bad, the vitals are all right, but there's something about them.

and you can't put your finger on it and you get that heavy pit in your gut, you just go, I don't like this, I don't like what's happening. And so you end up either brushing it off, it's nothing, I'm just being silly, I'm being overprotective or I'm too new or whatever else, it's, okay, something's wrong, I don't know what it is, but I'm still gonna follow it.

I'm going to be extra cautious with this patient. I'm going to be a little bit extra vigilant. I'm going to push for some extra blood work. I'm going to push for my doc to see them just a little bit faster than maybe they normally would because there's something there. And you just can't put your hand on it or your finger on it. But sure enough, the more often you do it, the more often you lean into it, the more often you're right. And so the science, it's comparing insight versus intuition. what are you looking for? Is it?

pattern recognition, is it neurotransmitters, is it experience? Like it's everything altogether. But it's just when you actually lean into it and just go like, you know, what's the worst that could happen if I was extra cautious with a patient? The patient still gets more attention. Science behind that, even if you're a brand new nurse, you're concerned, maybe you're over concerned, you go to your doc, doc actually comes back and sees your patient. Great, nothing's really all that bad. Just by having the doctor,

Katie Wrigley (21:22.165)
Mm

Jenn Johnson (21:36.761)
put eyes on that patient still improves patient outcomes. So it's like it's a win -win. So you can still practice your intuition and be wrong and that's fine. It's going to happen. You're not going to be right all the time, but it's a learning process. And the hardest part is just saying there's something there, not, and just to yourself and just acknowledging that you're feeling something. The next hardest part is then verbalizing it to somebody else to be like, you know, I just don't know what's happening. And, and I just,

I want to be super safe and make sure that all the I's are dotted, T's are crossed. We're not missing anything and go with that. so again, nobody's not benefiting from this. It's still the patient's getting extra care. You're learning. You're taking critical situations and kind of dissecting them a little bit more. Yes, it's absolutely pattern recognition and assessment skills. I can look at somebody across the park and go like,

Katie Wrigley (22:19.446)
Right.

Jenn Johnson (22:33.427)
liver, like just, you know, you're maybe you're a little jaundiced and you don't quite know it or I'm just kind of looking at you and I'm like, no, something not right, but it's not up to me again, especially not in just your public settings to be like, Hey, have you had your liver checked lately? Because you know, I just have this feeling because that doesn't go over well. I can tell you because I've done it one time at work to a family member and the family member was like, Yeah, I've got you know, whatever and I'm like,

Katie Wrigley (22:56.181)
you

Jenn Johnson (23:02.849)
Okay, sorry, I just thought I was being helpful. But you know, it was, it is what it is kind of thing. I just have to turn off my stove before apparently we burn the place down.

Katie Wrigley (23:15.576)
We will be right here. So a lot of what Jen is talking about and we're talking about the science here and There is also I don't want to say a spiritual component but a lot of people also talk about intuition as just this this knowing inside of you or a connection to Universal truth, right and we know when we're tapped into that universal truth because it sits

like truth, it feels like truth inside of us. And so that's just a different way to look at it. just wanted to fill up the time where you had to walk away, Jen. That's another way to look at it is like, does this feel like truth to me? And so if you get that nagging feeling that Jen's talking about of like, something feels off here with this patient, really connect to that for a moment and just, does this feel like truth? Yes, this feels like truth. Okay.

Jenn Johnson (23:54.457)
Thank you.

Katie Wrigley (24:12.77)
give the patient extra attention. Like Jen saying, it's not gonna hurt. There is no negative outcome. Like obviously if someone else is about to die, then there's a negative outcome, but you guys are getting a lot of all over the place and you're gonna be giving that patient more attention anyway, right about to like, right, right.

Jenn Johnson (24:16.761)
Now.

Jenn Johnson (24:22.125)
Fair enough. But truly, that's probably the one that's crashing, right? Because this is only happening, at least to me, like maybe it happens once every couple of shifts, maybe once or twice every couple of weeks when there's just that one. And like you're walking down the hall, you're just coming into shift and you stop immediately. And you're looking at this patient going like, what is happening here?

who's got this patient? What is happening? You know, they look awful. But like, what is happening? Like, I need more information on this. I may not even be their primary nurse. I'm stopping, I'm asking, because they're still in my department. Half the time I'm charge nurse, half the time I'm not. But once you step into charge nurse, you can't quite get out of that role. So it's just like, who needs a hand with this? Like, what is happening? You know,

Is there something that needs to be done? Are there medication to be given? Are we just looking to move the patient into a room now that there's an opening? You know, what can I help with with this? What's going to speed this along so that we can put them on a monitor to see what the heck's going on?

Katie Wrigley (25:32.022)
what can I do in this situation? So I want to actually keep the secrets in your book secret or all the stories in your book secret so that people go get it. Is there a story that didn't quite make the book that you could maybe share about how intuition actually had a really positive impact on a patient that you were working with?

Jenn Johnson (25:39.277)
Okay.

Jenn Johnson (25:51.531)
Yeah, so one that happened a while ago and just as the book was moving into editing. so, you know, it's six in the morning, I'm leaving at seven in the morning. It's been a long day. I've been a triage all night. I'm exhausted. I don't even know if we got breaks that night. It's things have finally settled down and a gentleman walks into the ER.

And I'm like, okay, like I'm triage. I'll handle this, whatever. It's six o 'clock. We'll probably sit on him till seven until the new doc comes in anyways, as long as everything's fine. So get talking to this guy and going through past medical history and sure enough, he's got pancreatic cancer. And I'm going, wow, you look really good for having pancreatic cancer. And we're kind of talking back and forth. And he's like, yeah, I'm just having a little bit of an uptick in pain and that's new for me. And I just want to kind of...

get this taken care of and do that kind of thing. So would go through everything, take his vitals. Vitals are fine, everything's fine. But it's just like, before I closed the program, I was like, but how are you doing? And it's not usually a question I'm asking at Triage because that's just a way too open -ended question for Triage. And I already know you're not feeling great or else you wouldn't be here kind of thing. So.

Katie Wrigley (27:03.661)
Ha ha!

Jenn Johnson (27:10.123)
you know, I'm just going like, hey, like, how are you doing with this? Because I don't think pancreatic cancer usually, typically, it's like a three month from diagnosis and you're gone kind of scenario. And so I said, you know, you must have this must be pretty new, because like, you look really good and and everything else. And he goes, it's fairly new. I'm about a month in and kind of starts going into everything. And I don't know what made me ask, but it's that

Katie Wrigley (27:20.876)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Jenn Johnson (27:39.053)
thought that popped into my head and it was out of my mouth before I could stop it. And I go like, but like, no, no, no, like, how are you really doing? Like, have you got things in place? Have you got, you know, do you know what your celebration of life would look like or wake or, you know, whatever? And he goes, actually, yeah. And he like, he went on and he listed all these things. You know, he's got two young kids.

and we're kind of talking about the satin the other and I said like look at they're actually death cafes where people who work in the industry of death get together and they talk about it and it's a way to kind of bounce ideas off of each other kind of bond a little bit and and realize that death is very normal for some of us so you know we need to kind of get around and talk to it because it's not something you can usually bring to a dining room table

And so it's, you know, okay. The kitchen is just... And so telling them about the death cafes, I said, you know, they're online, you can go to ones in person if you're comfortable with doing that. And it's not often that people who are in the process of dying are going. But honestly, you could get a lot of really good insight and a lot of...

Katie Wrigley (28:39.308)
Go ahead, I'll be right here.

Jenn Johnson (29:00.941)
great tips on what to expect and how to cope and how to prepare your family kind of thing. And I said, speaking of family, like how's your wife doing? And so I saw the ring on his finger. So I'm like, how's your wife doing with all this? He goes, she's not coping. She refuses to let me talk about dying. She refuses to say anything other than we're gonna beat this. And he goes, I don't want to bring her down with the reality that I've already accepted.

But it makes it very hard because I do want to talk about it. Like I do want to have it open and say things to her that, you know, she just can't accept hearing right now. said, okay. Said, so, you know, some of the things that I've been doing is like I've been writing, like I've got journals for my kids that have been going on since the moment I found out I was pregnant for each one of them. And so it's like, you know, you were loved from minute one. We were so excited. And, you know, this is the day that you

kick the crap out of my side and I had to like, you know, take your freaking foot out of my ribs because you were just getting in there and you know, and the kids think the stories are hilarious now. And so I'm like, this is what I've done and especially with COVID, I've kind of continued it again with this whole story of like leaving a legacy kind of thing. And so he goes, that's actually a really, really good idea. I think I would really like to do that. I said, go for it. Like this is your...

Katie Wrigley (30:11.894)
Right.

Jenn Johnson (30:28.685)
This is your ride. You're the one who is in charge of it. And it's unfortunate that your wife's not there to meet you halfway, but there are so many support services that you can look into. And so he goes, okay. And he just says, he's like, said, are you doing anything? He goes, yeah, we've got this like big trans European crew, like one of these river cruises kind of thing. And he goes, and it's happening in like June or July. And I think this is like,

February? I'm like, ooh, you might want to bump that up. He goes, do you think I'll be gone by then? I said, no, not necessarily. But at the same time, I also want you to be well enough to actually enjoy it and be there for your kids and make those memories. Like, I don't want you worrying about having to, you know, get off at some random stop being kind of left behind because you've got a medical emergency or you're too weak to continue kind of thing. So, you know, maybe bump it up. Pay the extra money, bump it up.

Katie Wrigley (31:10.797)
Right.

Jenn Johnson (31:28.247)
do all the things you gotta do because this is a once in a lifetime trip. And so I goes, yeah, yeah, that's good. And he goes, okay. And so I'm like, is there anything else I can do for you? goes, actually no, this has been just the best thing ever. And I'm like, I'm so glad, thank you. And so I close the window as he's walking away and I turn around and all my buddies are in the other end of the nursing station. They're all bawling. And I'm like, what'd do? They're like, you had another caring, intuitive moment. And so this is what they...

This is what they call it when I go off the deep end and just I start talking and not stopping. And so the joke is it's a caring intuitive moment because it's just, I just go with it. And it happens, of course, usually at like 6 a when I'm trying to like gear up to get ready to go and I got to make sure all my people are plopped and puffed and rock and roll for the next person. And so on the way home, my buddy and I were driving together. I said,

This is gonna sound like a really strange question, but you know me, I'm already strange, so it's fine. Was I talking in my normal voice? She goes, yeah. I'm like, all right, I thought I'd ask. I'm like, I know. Like, why not? Maybe I had a different lilt or something to it, I don't know, because I've done this enough where people go like, what are you doing? And I'm like, because this is not normally what I do.

You know, usually your typical ER nurse, you're in, you're out, see ya, have a great day, I'll see ya later versus like, how can I help you emotionally? But it's those moments that I always find these stories and it's like, it completely changes how that person's going to be treated within the ER. And I feel bad that I can't do it for everybody. But a lot of people are a little soul sucking. So I can't do it for everybody. So those that break through.

and get me into that head space of like talking without thinking. I'm always fascinated by the results because I'm just like, go completely off script and you never know what we're gonna find out because we end up finding out things that again, like completely change your entire idea of what you thought was going on with that patient.

Katie Wrigley (33:42.188)
Wow, and what a beautiful gift you gave him. And what I'm hearing in there is you accepted where it was. You knew the reality of the situation. You also knew that unlike the lawyers, that he's already been getting prepared that the end of his life is probably gonna be coming pretty quickly and way quicker than he expected. So you aren't dashing hope. You're moving reality. I just wanna make a distinction for listeners. They're like, wait a second, she just talked about that.

Jenn Johnson (34:00.141)
Yeah. Yeah.

No.

Jenn Johnson (34:09.002)
Yeah, you just talked about hope.

Katie Wrigley (34:10.764)
Totally different totally different because you're talking about someone who's already been given a fatal prognosis So meeting them where they are allowing them to be in that and helping to support them at the end of life That's beautiful. That's love. That's not dashing. Hope that's very different in there I Ironically, I actually know a stage three pancreatic cancer survivor. She's three years clean

Jenn Johnson (34:17.891)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (34:37.155)
Good for her. Holy cow. That's huge. Pick your brain later.

Katie Wrigley (34:39.138)
She does it through cognitive movement, which is a whole other discussion, but it's, and she is living with health. She looks, she looks healthy. And I, I met her when she was, I think within a couple months of finishing chemo. So I've watched her health grow over the last few years and she's thriving.

Jenn Johnson (34:55.234)
Okay.

Katie Wrigley (35:02.252)
But that's not what usually, and she speaks frankly that she was getting prepared for death and something inside of her talking about intuitions like, nope, no, this is not gonna take me. I'm going to find what I need to find to beat this and be the odds. And she did. And she's so diligent with everything that she does to maintain that.

Jenn Johnson (35:02.455)
It's insane, isn't it?

Katie Wrigley (35:27.936)
And not to a point where she's rigid and not enjoying life. She's enjoying life more than most people I know. It's just this beautiful thing, but it's rare.

Jenn Johnson (35:39.255)
Yeah, it's damn near unheard of. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (35:42.858)
It is. And so in that situation, like if you were to meet her, I'm guessing you would have switched and that you are going to what are you going to do? How are you going to? Yeah, right. Because she's like, well, I'm not going to die. I'm going to be the odds. All right. Cool. Someone's got to move.

Jenn Johnson (35:51.383)
Yeah, how are you going to celebrate? Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (35:59.139)
And like you want to talk about intuition. The patients who flat out look who's dead in the eyes and say, I'm going to die. Holy shit. Yup. Okay. I'm right there with you. And that just amps my cortisol and my adrenaline straight through the roof. Because I'm like, the number of times people have said that and are absolutely right, is scary. They absolutely know what's going on. They absolutely know.

Katie Wrigley (36:23.734)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (36:27.169)
what's happening and it's in those moments where it's like a critical situation and you've got no other option other than to go okay like sure yeah and and try your best to to do what you can and sometimes you you take the win and sometimes you have to take the loss because we're not miracle workers as much as we want to believe so

Katie Wrigley (36:45.741)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (36:51.562)
No, and miracles can occur, but it's a lot of it is in the mindset of the person. If someone's looking you on saying I'm going to die, their mindset isn't into miracles. They're ready to go. And I don't know if death actually doesn't scare me. What can happen to me on this earth? That could be a little frightening sometime, but I don't have any. I'm in any hurry to meet death, just to be clear. But because I know like I don't have I don't have a fear of death. And then you hear that they've.

Jenn Johnson (36:59.459)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (37:11.255)
Yeah.

Jenn Johnson (37:14.992)
no.

Katie Wrigley (37:18.764)
taking their life in three or four weeks. That's not me, just to be clear. I have no fear of death and I also not looking forward to it. It can be way out in the future, way, way, way out. I got a lot more I wanna do before I'm done. But that mindset, no, go ahead, please.

Jenn Johnson (37:21.397)
Yes. Okay, good.

Jenn Johnson (37:27.833)
Good, glad. Yeah.

right? This whole time it's sorry this this whole time in the back of my head is like just make it to be alive for the book release just like just just in the back just just keep moving just one step forward just keep moving just one more day just you know just keep moving forward and it's just like it's there we're right there let's go you know let's let's go

Katie Wrigley (37:53.89)
there's that.

Katie Wrigley (38:02.624)
Yeah, this has been an awesome conversation. I want to be mindful of time since I try to do shorter episodes for the business professionals who are listening. So we'll make sure that we have all the links in there. But Jen, if you can just tell people where they can find you, the title of your book. Again, I'm going to put all the links in the show notes. But where can they find you on social and the title of your book? And you already said Amazon. So I'll just say it again.

Jenn Johnson (38:06.936)
Yeah!

Jenn Johnson (38:10.733)
Love it.

Jenn Johnson (38:23.253)
Yep. So you can find me at rxforgrowth. So prescriptionforgrowth .com. You can find me TikTok and Instagram at ernurse .gen, J -E -N -N. You can find me on LinkedIn, Jennifer Johnson, B -S -C -N -R -N. Do not come for me. There's a million Jennifer Johnsons. So I had to do that. I'm sorry. I know we all hate it that we all use our like full designations. You can...

Katie Wrigley (38:48.386)
funny.

Jenn Johnson (38:52.291)
You can find me pretty well everywhere. know, I'm, Amazon, if you search Jennifer A. Johnson RN, you will find not just my book, but a ton of journals that I've done, again, on grief and death and dying and nurse wellness and a hundred shifts journal about just kind of keeping track of your own growth as a nurse as you grow and being able to kind of bounce back from those really tough days a little bit easier.

Katie Wrigley (39:16.384)
Awesome, thank you. So is there one message that you wouldn't wanna leave a nurse with who is just feeling the demands of your career? He or she is like thinking of tapping out and leaving the profession and doing something else. What would you wanna say to that nurse who's listening to this right now,

Jenn Johnson (39:36.055)
You're not alone. You're absolutely not alone. And if you need to step away or step away permanently, trust your gut. You know what you need. Nursing will always be there. There will always be shifts to fill. There will always be a job to go to. There will always be work. Do not worry about stressing out your colleagues, about worrying about if there's a job to go back to. There's a million jobs. Take care of yourself.

for once. We're the worst patients, so please just take care of yourself. And you know, they would post your job posting before they'd post your obit.

Jenn Johnson (40:18.519)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (40:19.34)
Damn. that last one. that had a hook in it, Jen. Oof, good one. Yeah, walk away. Don't go six feet under. Walk away if you are at that point, please. And yeah, you can be per diem. You can take breaks. You can go do something else, but.

Jenn Johnson (40:28.821)
No, no.

Jenn Johnson (40:33.827)
Yeah, there's so much work that, you know, just if it's there and you want to do it, great. If not, take some time, reflect. There's a million different jobs for nurses that doesn't require you being at the bedside and doing shift work.

Katie Wrigley (40:49.548)
Love that, thank you. That's really great advice. And thank you for joining me today, Jen. It's been great to get to know you, hear about your book, and I'm excited to see it hit the shelves. And you guys can go out to Amazon now and you can pre -order. And thank you, as always, to everybody who is listening. I know you have a lot of choices of what to listen to on the internet, and I really appreciate you taking your time and tuning in to my show. So I hope you're gonna come back and join me again next week. Until then, please be well.

Jenn Johnson (40:55.053)
Thank you.