The Mind/Body Connection Between Emotions and Chronic Pain with Dr Peter Zafirides

Dr. Peter Zafirides, an expert in chronic pain and emotions, shares his personal journey with chronic pain and how he discovered the connection between emotions and physical pain. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the purpose of pain and the role of emotions in its manifestation.

Dr. Zafirides highlights the need for collaboration between medical and psychiatric approaches to chronic pain and the importance of unlearning pain patterns. He also discusses the strength and resilience of individuals with chronic pain and the potential for personal growth and empowerment.

Takeaways
Chronic pain can be influenced by emotions and has a protective purpose.
Collaboration between medical and psychiatric approaches is essential in understanding and treating chronic pain.
Unlearning pain patterns and addressing emotional factors can lead to pain relief.
Individuals with chronic pain are often strong and resilient, and their pain can be a catalyst for personal growth and empowerment.

Where to find Peter:
Website
LinkedIn (he posts AWESOME content!

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:00.778)
Welcome to the Catapult Effect podcast. I am your host Katie Wrigley and I have an awesome guest joining me today who is an expert in the field of chronic pain and the connection with chronic pain and emotions. If you've listened to this podcast at all, you know that he and I speak the same language. So it's my pleasure to introduce you to Dr. Peter Zafridis. He is the president and medical director. I'm going to let you go ahead and take over from here.

Peter Zafirides (00:30.098)
that's what I mean.

Katie Wrigley (00:30.178)
Let them know where they can find you. And thank you so much for joining us today, doctor.

Peter Zafirides (00:34.568)
Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate it. Peter from Here on Out, please. But yeah, I'm president medical director of Central Ohio Behavioral Medicine. We're a psychiatric practice. We've been in practice together. hard to believe now, 27 years, but we've been practicing together for that time. Group of three psychiatrists. We treat all different types of emotional issues from depression and anxiety, but my particular area of interest, and I think why we kind of connected, was in that interface between the emotions

chronic

Katie Wrigley (01:07.148)
Yeah, and so I actually got connected to Peter on LinkedIn. So he posts the most amazing content out there with these visuals that just really hit the nail on the head for what we're feeling inside. Like I've had visceral, like verbal responses to some of the stuff you've put out there. Like, that's so good. Like it just, it's amazing what you're putting out there. And so thank you for that.

Peter Zafirides (01:26.984)
Thank you. Not really appreciate

Katie Wrigley (01:30.786)
So you had mentioned you had been in chronic pain yourself. Would you mind sharing with the audience how you got into your focus on chronic pain?

Peter Zafirides (01:37.823)
Yeah, it was back, gosh now it's been quite a while, back around 2019, I had hurt myself, hurt myself I thought, doing some exercise in my back and thought I had felt something pop and then it progressively, over the weeks and months that continued, progressively got worse and had a little bit of pain into my legs and some numbness and it really scared me. mean, just, here I am just trying to do the best for myself

for myself and then began this months long and it went into years on process of trying to figure out what was going on. So got my series of imaging and there wasn't really a whole lot that was identified visually. I was convinced because I had read something because at that point I was still, I had just finished my residency so you know I'm still checking online.

online was fairly new but the annual tear of my disc seemed like that's what I had. And I had gone to get all these different tests and we had actually gone to this expert in, I believe it was in Indiana, Indianapolis, who did these tests of your discs. And I for sure thought that it was going to be positive but he said it's negative. There's nothing there. So I went through injections.

and physical therapy, the routine, and just by pure luck I'm sitting one night, this is just serendipitous. I tell people other than meeting my wife, this is probably one of the most serendipitous things that's ever happened. Where I was just sitting there in my middle bedroom, which I converted to an office, and I looked over to my right and I saw this book, Healing Back Pain. And honest to God, Katie, I can't even remember buying it, to tell you the truth. I just saw it down

and it was a book by Dr. Sarno. So I opened it up and started reading and it was this book that talked about the role of emotions in physical pain. And specifically that there's a functional purpose to the pain. It's real pain, but there is a protective and almost survival -based element to the physical pain in protecting against either unwanted or terrifying emotions. And at that point John had talked about anger.

Peter Zafirides (03:56.708)
being the main thing, anger and rage. And in the process of repressing it or suppressing it, we use pain as a functional kind of distraction, you will. What it isn't, though, is not hypochondriasis or something neurotic. The pain is real, but there's a purpose to it. And, you know, I figured for sure as I looked back early on, was placebo, but as I'm reading this, I notice I'm starting to feel a bit better.

And I was just fascinated by this experience. And at that point, there weren't that many people doing this. So I bought a couple more of his books and read further. And at that point, there was one individual, David Schechter, who's a physician out in California who had had a workbook that he had trained under Dr. Sarno. And between that book and the workbook and the readings that I did, most of my pain

within the next few months had gone away. So it was really an amazing experience for me that there's no way I would have ever thought that would happen. And I'd always been interested kind of in psychiatry of this interplay between emotions and physical symptoms, not necessarily pain per se, but maybe it's role in cancer and other issues. But it really kind of changed the course of my life personally and professionally where...

I started to connect with these individuals. I was fortunate enough before he passed away to spend some time with Dr. Sarno's clinic in New York. We had started the Psychophysiological Disorders Association in 2009 and has now grown to where there are many practitioners of all disciplines that are doing this work and trying to understand this mind -body relationship. So that's kind of my story on it, both personally and professionally.

Katie Wrigley (05:53.422)
That's incredible and thank you for sharing that. So I'm curious, you said you had just finished your residency and I know you've just mentioned psychiatry as well. Did any of your medical training give much of an explanation as to what you were experiencing and how it could be possible that you had the levels of pain that you did with imaging that didn't match up to the pain level?

Peter Zafirides (06:15.238)
Not specifically for physical pain. I mean, we had learned about things like conversion disorder where people will turn emotional symptoms into physical symptoms, but it wasn't anything that's specific to pain. And we certainly, in medical school, never received any kind of, it was very, very little training in general on anything emotional or psychological or psychiatric. But even in psychiatry, it was more

the typical disorders, mood disorders, psychotic disorders, and the like that we were

Katie Wrigley (06:45.517)
this.

I wanted to ask that question because a lot of times when someone gets into chronic pain, they put all these expectations on the doctor. And I was already pretty sure what your answer was before you actually answered it, but I wanted the audience to hear this, that your doctor may not have that kind of experience. This is exactly why end chronic pain, correct me if I'm wrong, please, Peter, but I believe chronic pain is when you have an unrelenting pain for three to six months. That's when it goes from acute to chronic.

Peter Zafirides (07:15.624)
That's correct. That's correct.

Katie Wrigley (07:19.296)
And so if you have been experiencing pain for three to six months and you aren't getting anywhere with your doctor,

Reach out to Peter, please, or to someone local to you that may be a little bit easier for you to access, but we will make sure we go over all of that. But you want to find a pain specialist because they are going to have different training and most likely have probably been in pain themselves to have a deeper understanding of this than people who are going through regular medical school have never had chronic pain. God love them. Lucky people. But you can't really understand pain unless you've been in it.

Peter Zafirides (07:56.844)
That's true, and I think, you know, I don't want to suggest that there aren't medical or physical conditions that will cause chronic pain. Absolutely. When you've gotten to the point where either there's not a good relationship to why you should be hurting or everything has been tried or if you really tear apart the data in terms of these common findings, I mean,

It's stunning to see, and I remember back then looking at some studies, I believe it came out of Harvard, that looked at people who had no pain, and in greater than 70 % of those people imaged, there were diagnosable pathologic issues on imaging. then studies that have been done since that time that have tracked thousands of individuals, whether it is low back pain or, I'm sorry, no pain, but you're seeing physical findings on low back.

rotator cuff tears, hip labral issues. I'm not trying to disparage that those conditions can't cause pain, but there's enough there where we see people who are in no pain that have those. And then other individuals who I will see that come in with no identifiable pathology on imaging, yet they're in pain. So there is a little bit of a disconnect that we have to kind of reconcile. And I think it's better to collaborate together rather than push off, right?

Katie Wrigley (09:25.186)
Yes. Thank you for expanding on that. And that's, that's really solid, good advice. So what is the, is there an explanation of how some people have imaging that points to things that quote unquote should hurt, but don't.

and then imaging that points to nothing hurting, but they're an excruciating pain. And as you'd already mentioned, I love that you already said the pain is real. So none of what we're talking about is psychosomatic. So that is a lot of messaging that a lot of my clients have gotten. I'm sure a lot of them, your client, your patients have gotten that before they come to see you. it's all in your head. While there is truth that the brain is the organ that is creating the pain, it doesn't mean that it's not real.

Peter Zafirides (09:59.236)
thing.

Peter Zafirides (10:08.904)
That's absolutely correct. And we know the areas in the brain that create pain, particularly in the thalamus region. But we also, people can understand that chronic pain doesn't necessarily have to have an ongoing stimulus for it to continue. And usually the example that I will give is the idea of diabetes. Someone has such severe diabetes in the limb that they need to amputate it. Yet they will continue to feel pain.

in a foot that is not there any longer, phantom limb pain. So in that, we can understand how those circuits almost kind of burn into place, this chronic pain, but that is coming from the brain, not necessarily because the foot isn't there any longer. So, you know, we haven't come across a good explanation as to why this happens, but I think that it's fair to kind of look at this and see there is some precedent here of where the brain can continue pain circuits. So could it be possible that in

Katie Wrigley (10:40.749)
Yep.

Peter Zafirides (11:05.638)
defense of emotional factors, this pain can occur for a specific purpose.

Katie Wrigley (11:12.226)
Yeah, and I agree, there always seems to be a purpose to that pain. And a lot of times, at least in my experience, both personally and working with other people.

the subconscious mind may still be creating that for some reason. But it's never there to punish you, even though it feels like punishment. It's there because it's your body trying to give you a message. And my body still uses my back to communicate to me because it knows that that is the fastest way to get my attention. So I fell into that pool of I had imaging that showed that I should hurt.

And it was, it's kind of funny as I look back because the, I was working with the physiatrist and his physician assistant, my feedback to him was you should give everybody all the bad news all the time.

Because he was so gentle and so good with it. Like I wasn't really reacting. As I walked to my car, I'm like, why do I want to cry? And then I like looked at the results again. I'm like, my back is messed up. Like, yeah, no wonder I want to cry. But he was just so positive in the way that he delivered it that there wasn't this extra emotional. I was really surprised by my reaction. So I'm like, that wasn't so bad. I'm like, wait, no, let me let me think about the meanings of these words. And every time.

I went in imaging proved that I should hurt, pain levels went up. Even though nothing else changed. It's I have a reason to hurt. So my brain's like, yep, you got a reason to hurt.

Peter Zafirides (12:40.678)
Yeah, I can totally relate to that and I share that same kind of experience, I think, in those earth. And I still will get it like you from time to time. The difference is, at this point, I at least know what is going on and can, first off, not be terrified of it, not be scared of it, and then know what I have to do to have it go away. And it might take a little bit of time, but it does go away. And that's where when people come in and say, well, how long is this going to take, Peter?

I just share with them my story. Not that it's going to take years, but it gets better and better. And then at some point, at least there was kind of this catalyzing event for me that kind of shifted everything from, I believe it, but there's a little bit of doubt to, now I absolutely believe it. And people get to that threshold at very different times. So it's kind of hard to tell people when, but that they just need to continue with the progress forward.

Katie Wrigley (13:39.512)
Yes, absolutely. That continuing that path and checking in with yourself as well. That's been one of the things that I used as I was coming out of it. Would you say that this is a truthful statement or not to say that there is some unlearning of those pain signals that the body and the brain have to go to to help fully release them?

Peter Zafirides (13:58.26)
I think it's exactly that, I really do. It's not just the emotions and just the protective process, but it really is, I mean, to me, that's the essence of all types of therapy, is really kind of unlearning and then relearning, and it certainly applies here. And a lot of that is to first understand the process that is going on, which is usually kind of holding back emotions.

And what we try to do in this treatment is in a safe way allow these emotions to come out and realize that we don't vaporize into nothingness. At least that was the case for me. There was a lot of pushback and fear for some of these subconscious or unconscious issues that once I was able to kind of release them, there's no need for the pain to come in and protect against anything. So in understanding that and getting a little bit of proof, we slowly begin to shift our mindset on that. And it really is an unlearning.

In fact, I use those exact words when I talk to my

Katie Wrigley (14:56.078)
And that's been my experience as well. I love that we're having this conversation and similar to yours, I had a catalyzing event. I went to a Cognitive Movement event called Cognoconscious. At the time it was end of 2020. So we were virtual for three days. That was eight hours of Cognitive Movement a day, which is a lot. Now it's a in -person five day event. It's still a lot, but it's not as tough. But we go

all the emotional levels from shame up to enlightenment per David Hawkins power versus force that is his map of enlightenment or stages of consciousness rather and so that's what the event does and Bill McKenna the founder he was like you know he's like you may need surgery you may not because I was

awaiting a neurosurgery consult at that point. I'd done all the things you had, physical therapy, injections, cortisone, RFA, nothing was working and I was losing strength in my left leg, which was the concern. It wasn't just the pain levels, it that I was starting to lose some functionality in my limbs and that's what really freaked me out. And did this event and canceled my neurosurgery consult.

And I had actually started with a pain therapist right before that. So had one call with her. She gave me a whole bunch of homework. I tried to read the homework to be a good patient. We got on the phone with her Monday morning after this Cognaconscious event. And she's like, you know, how are you feeling? And so I'm like bursting with all this energy and everything. And I was just like, I didn't do my homework. She's like, why? I'm like, because it made me feel like I was back in pain again reading all that stuff. And she started laughing. I'm like, what?

She's like, you don't need me. You already got further than I thought I was going to get you in the next four months. Like you're good. She's like, I'm going to release you from being the perfect patient. Just cancel your consult. You don't need it. I'm like, I don't? She's like, no, you don't need me. She's like, whatever you did this weekend, keep doing it. It worked. I'm like, OK, cool.

Peter Zafirides (16:35.814)
Yeah.

Peter Zafirides (16:46.866)
That's great.

Peter Zafirides (16:57.756)
Yes, exactly. And that's what, you know, when we start out with individuals, I just let them know the goal here is not a long -term treatment with me. You know, this is something that if I can help and we can get some of this going and you're feeling better, the proof of you improving is you no longer needing to see me. And I think for most of the clinicians, about all of us there in the PPDA, the Psychophysiologic Disorder Association.

We kind of share that kind of general vision, right? It's not that we fail if a person stays with us, but the goal really is to empower and get you to the point where you're out of pain, where you don't need to see anybody. Because then you've built all the tools that you need, you understand how the emotions and pain work, and you take care of yourself.

Katie Wrigley (17:45.454)
Yep, yeah, I love the way you work. It's the same way. I'm gonna show you how to get out of pain and then I'm gonna teach you how to stay out of it as we go. And that's exactly what we do and that's when you've learned and you've mastered it. So it was end of 2020 when I did the Cognaconscious event and then it was probably, I'm not really sure, a year and a half, two years until...

I didn't have many pain signals anymore. I still say that that's where it changed because that was the catalyzing event. And once I saw that, I was able to really unlearn the rest of that pain pattern. It was much easier from there out. But that event is absolutely what I identify as what changed. And I did a half marathon last month. So I've

definitely come in and now that was an interesting experience because you can go back into that same pain pattern again if you push your body too far and you're overriding the messages that it's giving you.

Peter Zafirides (18:47.304)
It's just an amazing thing. I look back and I can relate. did a half marathon back in 2019.

incorporated weight training into my daily. And it's the same back that was there in 2000 or 2001. So if anything more has degenerated over these last 25 years, if it really was physical, how is this not worse? But by doing that, I'm sure you can relate, it's just it reinforces where the pain is coming from and where it's not.

Katie Wrigley (19:02.221)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Wrigley (19:20.781)
Yep.

Peter Zafirides (19:29.479)
Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (19:30.336)
Exactly. And you also said something really important at the beginning is that it's scary. Pain is scary until we start to understand it and then it's not so scary. And when we get to that point where it's not so scary, then you can start to observe when your body starts to go back into these patterns. And that's something I had experienced directly is so I had been diagnosed with CRPS, which just for people hadn't heard of it. It's complex regional pain syndrome. I'm sure you've heard of it, Peter. I'm sure you treat a lot of it, actually.

Peter Zafirides (19:58.102)
yeah, because I do and God's not.

Katie Wrigley (20:00.24)
I was diagnosed with that in my right leg and I had the different different color legs or different color skin I could really see the atrophy in my quads all of that was really noticeable and there is a slight functional difference but I also have scar tissue in my right knee after the knee replacement I've chosen not to eliminate by going for another surgery because the first one didn't work that well so we're just gonna live around the scar tissue and it's but

I went so far back into that pattern. So I actually didn't hurt myself running. I hurt myself on a Costco run of all things, like stocking up on heavy stuff, not thinking through the heavy bag onto my back and all the muscles locked up. But it was the same muscles that used to protect me. And so that triggered in my subconscious mind that old pain pattern. I looked in the mirror and I'm like,

My legs are different color again. Like, this is interesting. But it didn't scare me anymore because I'm like, all right, I know how to undo this, but this is fascinating. I just kind of want to watch what's happening here because I'm learning something from this. And it wasn't so uncomfortable that I couldn't tolerate it. I was more fascinated by what was happening than anything else. But I've been doing this for years before I got to that

Peter Zafirides (21:00.242)
know.

Peter Zafirides (21:22.265)
No, very similar experiences with myself. The mindset is the key. It really is. It comes from consistent learning and practice. That's how has to be.

Katie Wrigley (21:35.192)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (21:38.878)
So is there a typical experience that you see with people who are coming into your practice?

Peter Zafirides (21:47.868)
You know, maybe not so much a typical experience. mean, I think in general people come in most often with back pain. I think that's kind of where the psyche goes for most people. But what I do see very consistently in these individuals is either adverse childhood experiences, if not outright trauma and abuse, some type of difficulty that they have faced. And the resultant symptoms were...

Katie Wrigley (22:10.018)
Mm -hmm.

Peter Zafirides (22:17.456)
emotional processes that people go through in terms of that suppression or repression or numbing of those events and the emotional feelings that come with that, oftentimes we can get to that type of history very consistently. So I don't want to say it's all the time, but it is not uncommon to see that as a consistent part.

of those that suffer with physical

Katie Wrigley (22:48.43)
Yeah, and I've seen that as well, both in my own experience. That was the cause of mine is I had a trauma I hadn't acknowledged that sat in my body for 40 years. And my body was alerting me for years before I was disabled. I just didn't know that that's what it was doing. So I didn't pay attention until I couldn't move. And I'm like, OK, paying attention now. There's nothing else I can do. You're not letting me move much. I can't think much. I'm too tired. I can't sleep. Like, all right, what do we do?

Peter Zafirides (23:16.701)
Yes, and there's so many interventions now, the benefit of really psychotherapies like EMDR that can be very, very powerful for those with trauma histories. But the essence of it is being able to approach those emotions and realize that you're much stronger than the emotions that are there and what you hold in that trauma.

Just try to tell people, from the psychiatric perspective, my only goal, and you should see whether it's my medications that I write or some of the therapy that we do, the only goal is to lower the noise. Because if we can lower the noise, the strength that's in the individual has always been there. But sometimes the pain or the mood or the thoughts really are great deceivers and they start to challenge, like am I capable of doing this? And that's where I think, like we had talked just a minute ago, kind of this unlearning and

If we can just lower some of that intensity, that strength comes through. I didn't create it, it was always there. Maybe I helped in getting some of the weeds out of the way. And I think that's where people really then can understand and become empowered.

Katie Wrigley (24:24.226)
Yes, I love that, that the strength was already there and it's just the pain is masking it temporarily. And that actually brings up another belief that I've seen is that the people that I know who are in chronic pain are some of the biggest badasses I've ever met. They are the strongest people. It's like they don't realize sometimes how strong they are, like how hard it is.

Peter Zafirides (24:40.592)
Yes. Yes.

Katie Wrigley (24:51.916)
to get out of bed, to move forward during the day when your body is constantly giving you pain signals. Like it is incredibly difficult and these people got smiles on their faces and they're showing up for their kids and they're showing up for their families and they may be really struggling but they are absolutely some of the strongest people I have ever met in my entire life and they blow me away over and over again with what they're capable of doing.

Peter Zafirides (25:19.528)
I would agree. I would agree whether it's the people that we see who are the anonymous many or some of the

celebrities or people that we know, right, who are highly, highly productive and successful, whether it's in business or other avenues in life, and there's this consistent, you profile. It's the same thing. If we understand it as, let's just take one aspect of it, anger, right, and if that anger came from trauma, it is that same motivation and energy that leads a person to excellence.

Katie Wrigley (25:51.394)
Mm

Peter Zafirides (25:51.74)
kind of that anger that is propelling them, but then also can be an anchor with the physical pain. So oftentimes some of the most successful individuals out there are those, and I've seen some of them, who have had terrible, terrible pain. And as we tear it apart, then we kind of understand what's underneath. But it's the same fuel that's been used for their success.

Katie Wrigley (26:15.564)
Yes, I love that. It is. again, that echoes in my experience. And since I have been so much less pissed off, since I started doing the deep work, I'm a lot more productive. Thanks.

Peter Zafirides (26:29.258)
Yes, that will happen.

Katie Wrigley (26:30.37)
I'm not burning up all that time bitching to everybody else and getting everybody else into my bandwagon of anger. And that's really easy bandwagon to get people on because we're all like hardwired to go that way pretty quickly because that's what we're getting all the time in our messaging, right? And yeah, it's so much easier to be me now that I'm not angry and not in pain. But yeah, there was there was a huge piece and just a side note on that, like the organ that

Peter Zafirides (26:45.437)
who.

Katie Wrigley (26:57.598)
anger tends to sit in is the liver. so you'll see a lot of like, if we go more into the holistic alternative realm, there's a whole lot of detoxing that actually needs to come to get that liver to be healthy again. And that

I just got my liver healthy again. And now I also did some things directly to it that damaged it a little extra, like some excessive binge drinking, a few addictions that hit directly into the liver, know, those kind of things that are no longer in my present. But yeah, my liver took a beating and I've got hemochromatosis, so iron goes to limit too, liver too, so.

Peter Zafirides (27:25.544)
It adds up, yeah.

Katie Wrigley (27:35.498)
That's exactly why I don't drink anymore. It was just easier not to and I figured I should spare my poor liver because it's already getting beaten up enough just by the natural course of me being me who not metabolizing iron. But there's so much complexity in there. So

Where can people find you and are there any restrictions with who you can work with? I know when we've got like licensed medical doctors and stuff, there may be different restrictions that me as a coach I may not have, but I'm also, you don't have the same level of education that you do as well too.

Peter Zafirides (28:06.891)
No, I appreciate that.

Yeah, I mean as an MD, know, in Ohio, I'm licensed to see people in Ohio. So if anyone in Ohio would be interested then certainly getting in touch with me, whether it would be in person or telehealth, that is something that I'm open to. Our practice is Central Ohio Behavioral Medicine at centralohiobherbornmedicine .com. So if that's me, you can also check me out on LinkedIn as well. That's where I tend to do most of

in my writing and posting until I can get maybe a personal page up. But I think in general, I really want to pound the table home for the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association, the PPDA. That really is, and it is a fantastic kind of compendium of all of these treaters listed by state.

so that you can at least take a look in your area to see if there's someone who's at least trained and understands some of this before needing to go anywhere else. So David Clark is the founding member of that and David has done an amazing job with everyone. mean, some of these people are just my absolute idols in the field and I've learned and have gotten better because of them. And it's been amazing to see the growth of that group. So I think if people out there are

and they're not necessarily in Ohio or it's convenient, checking out the PPDA is really, important.

Katie Wrigley (29:37.876)
Awesome, thank you. So what is that website then?

Peter Zafirides (29:41.264)
It's the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association. I know, I know, I know, yes. I can get you the information.

Katie Wrigley (29:45.142)
Okay, that's a mouthful. I'll make sure that we have that linked.

Katie Wrigley (29:53.687)
I can find that and add a link and with all the AI stuff going on, stuff going on behind the scenes in Riverbed may actually pick up that link automatically, which.

Peter Zafirides (30:03.368)
Well, the actual link is ppdassociation .org .org. So it's fairly easy and you can just scroll by state and there's a lot of information and literature that we put up there so that people can at least start to get some information and understanding of what might be going on with their pain.

Katie Wrigley (30:08.694)
Okay, great.

Katie Wrigley (30:23.626)
Awesome. Thank you so much. Is there one thing that you want to leave the audience with today that you want to give as a piece of advice for someone who's experiencing chronic pain? They're at the end of the rope. Their nervous system feels like it's on fire all the time. What do you have to say to that person who's listening right now, Peter?

Peter Zafirides (30:25.448)
Of course.

Peter Zafirides (30:41.532)
I would say please don't give up. I'm not coming at this just as a psychiatrist or an expert in this field. I have been through this myself. I have been there where I doubted everything. I've been there where I never thought it was going to get better and got so terribly depressed in my life before I got better. But taking the time and looking at it in a different way with those individuals that are out there now trying to help, there is hope.

people to least not assume that it is the end of the road for them without investigating this aspect of pain management.

Katie Wrigley (31:20.29)
Thank you. That is a great piece of advice to end on. Thank you so much for your time today, Peter. It's been great to be able to connect with you more deeply than I can on LinkedIn and get to know a little bit more about your story and how you're helping your patients. Thank you so much for the work you're doing in the world.

Peter Zafirides (31:36.242)
Thank you Katie, I appreciate the opportunity to be on here with

Katie Wrigley (31:39.754)
and thank you audience for joining us again today. I appreciate you as always and we will see you again soon. Be well until then take care.